Official Luthiers Forum!

You guys ever had a Waverly that is put in right and turns fine under no load get really tight when strung up, particularly on the G string?

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

This is a common issue with Waverly tuners - they hold to closer tolerances in the gear train than most other tuners, so are more likely to suffer excessive friction in operation from minor misalignment. A recent thread on Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum covers the corrective action to 'balance' the tuners.

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/176996

While it sounds as though what you are experiencing is minor misalignment as covered in the thread referenced above, we have on occasion found that the factory miss-torqued the shaft bushing and the tuners are very, very tight on or off the instrument. In those instances, Stewart MacDonald has immediately (at least in the US) sent a replacement set at their cost, issue a return authorization, and generally shipped within a day of notification of the problem.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Yup- It is made worse by the fact that the bore in the bushings is larger than it needs to be for the string post so it definitely can twist or bend if contact isn't tight at the nut side of the bushing. Having taken a few sets apart recently there is definitely play in the connection between the string post and the body of the tuner.

If you were being super anal you would want to make sure the post is tight to the bushing towards the string pull force rather than the true front of the bushing. For the G string (and mostly on paddle headstocks) that might matter.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Just an observation:

This is a brand that is sort of the Lie-Nielsen of tuning gears, right? In other words, you pay a lot more money for them, but they are flawless and of heirloom quality, so that's why you pay more money for them than you would for Schallers or Gotohs.

I would politely and respectfully demand from the retailer that you get what you paid for.

Good Stuff, sounds like exactly what I have experienced from time to time. Thanks guys.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Exactly...but only after ensuring that your installation is not part of the problem.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

I've had some success by slightly spreading apart the two ears that the worm gear rides in.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Are you guys lubing the tuners. I've had success using a small drop (pipette applied) of 3 in 1 oil to both journals and the worm gear and then spinning the tuner in a drill with a Turbotuner attachment. Once they are lubed up I wipe off any excess and they are usually way smoother.

Turbotuners for drills are no longer available but there are other lesser substitutes out there for use in a drill or power winder.

Waverlys are great tuners!

BTW this lubing technique works great on any open geared/backed tuner including vintage stuff. Just make sure they are firmly attached, the bushings are driven home and only one small drop on each of the three places per tuner.

EDIT: On vintage stuff check out the buttons to be sure they are not cracking before using a drill based tuner spinner.

+1 Sometimes solutions are the most simple things

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Waverlies are great- I use them gladly most of the time but aside from having a bronze vs brass gear they are not very different from the other similar open back machines. The machining is fine but nothing amazing and the design is fairly simple.

Im not bashing them at all but the reputation of their being much better than other machines (I'm thinking the Gotoh version and the Schaller Grandtunes) isn't so true. Except, of course, for the difference in gear material which IMHO IS a big deal and why I use Waverlies.

Stewmac generous policy of supporting them up doesn't hurt either!

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Since I am just a hobbyist, and not selling guitars (yet), I have never paid for a set of Waverlys. They cost 2.5 to 3 times what Schallers or Gotohs or Grovers cost. All of these brands provide a decent level of performance. So, I have trouble seeing the added value. Assuming Waverlys are better, are they really 2.5 to 3 times as good as the other brands?

If I were selling my guitars, I would probably see things differently. The customers would probably want "the best" on a handcrafted guitar, and would be willing to pay the extra cost as a pass-through.

Certainly nothing pointed out in this thread makes me question my tuner choices for guitars I am not selling. If Waverlys are so precisely machined that they don't work well unless they are precisely installed, I see that as a drawback, not a feature.

From John Greven's web site

"My stock tuning machines are Gotoh standards in gold or the 510 model, and Grover Sta-tite butterbean tuners for the vintage style guitar models. I do not like Waverly tuning machines and will not offer them unless the player insists and supplies them."

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

My only experience with Waverly's are on a Martin I own. They are factory installed. Frankly I am underwhelmed with them. But, they look so nice I check them out from time to time but are yet to pull the trigger on them.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

There are people that just have to have Waverlys. If you think installing guitar singles is a problem, you should try the mandolin tuners (not to mention they cost almost $500 bucks). Those, of course are on a plate, and require the utmost of accuracy in drilling the holes for the bushings.
Gotohs were always fine with me, but some folks just couldn't learn to tune or are too intolerant. Probably the same folks that want perfect pitch all the way up the neck...

I am not sure whether or not Waverly makes the best open back tuner, but they certainly seem to provide the best support to both luthiers and end-users who buy their products.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Product support is definitely an important factor to consider. However, compare these two situations:

1. Well made tuners that cost less, and need absolutely no product support, because they just work and don't stop working.

2. Arguably better made tuners that cost a whole lot more, but they occasionally need product support, and excellent product support is provided.

I'm just happier buying product #1. More Subaru than Audi. To each his/her own. Like I said, if I were building for buying customers, I would probably be more open to using Waverlys, because customers would probably want them.

Interestingly and no offense intended the builders who rely on Waverly tuners rather religiously don't seem to have the time to post in this forum.....

Huh? I use Waverlys on probably 90% of my builds and have for 16 years. The StewMac volume users discount makes the price much more competitive and whether it's warranted or not they seem to add desirability in the marketplace.

Other than the occasional sticky one which I now know more about how to fix, they have performed great and as mentioned they are well supported. Oh yeah, I like the boxes, I use the empties for all sorts of stuff!

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Waverlys went on more then half of what I built as well, love em!

Here's some Waverly users:

Altman
Bear Creek
Beard
Bedell Guitars
Borges
Bourgeois
Breedlove
Buscarino
Collings
Franks
Froggy Bottom
Galloup
Gibson
Goodall
Hooper
Huss & Dalton
Kallenbach
Knaggs
Ko'olau
Kopp
Larrivée
Lewis
Lucas
Maingard
Martin
Merrill
National
Paul Reed Smith
Proulx
Rockbridge
RoZaWood
Sams
Santa Cruz
Schaefer
Schoenberg
Sexauer
Skipper
Steinegger
Tippin
Webber

See any regular... OLF posters?

And they are a cheap compared to some other tuners...the single set of Alessi tuners we just put on a Hauser II was just a little less than the six sets of Waverly 3-on-plate we got in for the four slothead projects & shop stock. Bargain!

And just because someone had to go there...so pretty!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Try the open back 510 Gotohs and you may forget Waverlys. They have "510" where it usually says "GOTOH" - otherwise they look the same.

A set of nickel tuners are $95 from g-jax.com. For comparison, the regular 700 series Gotoh open back tuners are $60.

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

John,
Those are pretty good looking tuners. I do like Gotoh.

It looks like LMI doesn't carry these. How is G-jax if you have a problem?

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Wanted to give a shout-out to Grover as well. Some of you may recall the bad batch of Grover open backs from the 2008ish time frame. They would skip at times and not increase tension.

One of my clients brought back one of mine with this happening. I contacted Grover's distributer that IIRC was in Ohio back then. They offered to replace the offending tuner. I was a bit miffed that this even happened and asked Grover how they expect my client or me to have any confidence in the other tuners in the set that didn't fail, yet, but were made in the same batch as the one that did fail.

Grover replaced the entire set. That was impressive.

Never got to use Gotoh open backs but I did use some of the their other tuners with decent results. I just don't like the 21 : 1 tuning ratio of some Gotoh tuners. Precise they are but who has the time to be cranking and cranking for drop tunings and putting strings on.

In our business we see lots of Grovers that are around 50 years old now and still doing fine. Back in my day everyone put Grovers on our Guilds and Martins and considered them to be the best. Times change.

Grover Sta-Tites are darn good and 18/1 instead of 16/1.