Official Luthiers Forum!

There is a thread going here on the OLF regarding a fellow who is looking for an unpaid internship, and someone posted a link to a very thoughtful thread on the OLF asking who among us is "living the dream," which was defined as being a luthier for a living. This all brings to my mind some thoughts I want to share, but I don't want to hijack or derail another discussion, so I will post them here.

The "living the dream" thing always catches my eye, whether we are talking about lutherie, or making music, or any of the other things that many of us spend some our time doing. I want to put forth a premise: I believe that the fact that a lot of folks consider it their dream to build guitars for a living (or be a professional musician, or whatever) is driven by a particular way of thinking, and it is my honest belief that we would all be better off if we did not think that way.

The way of thinking that I challenge is best defined by a piece of advice that I am sure many of you have received at some point in your lives: Do what you love and the money will follow. There was a book by Marsha Sinetar by that name (or something close), and it probably was on the shelf of many high school guidance counselors for a long time. I won't hold back: I firmly believe that this is some of the worst advice one human being can give to another. I believe the truth is much more nuanced than what can be captured on a bumper sticker, but because that advice was short and catchy, and sounds so profound, it was therefore freely shared, and heeded, by many. And, in my opinion, it is responsible for a lot of folks having sorrowful lives when the advice did not yield its promise.

The fallacy of the advice, of course, is that life does not guarantee two other critical factors necessary to secure your happiness by doing the thing you love for a living: First, whether you can be good at this thing you love; and second, whether someone will pay you enough money to live on for doing this thing you love, even if you are good at it. Life is cruel for being that way, but it is nonetheless that way. I might love to have sex, or eat, or watch movies. Can I be great at doing those things? Will someone pay me a living wage for boinking, or eating, or watching movies? There are folks who really do all those things for a living, but is it realistic to expect that I will be among those blessed few? Not likely.

I think the better advice rests in the creation of three lists.

The first list needs to consist of the things you would be moderately happy doing for about a third (or more) of your 24 hour day every day. This can contain things you love, but it should also contain things you merely like, as well as things you are relatively indifferent about. It should not include things that make you miserable.

The second list needs to consist of the things you either are already good at doing, or realistically can be with proper education and some experience. I say realistically because life stinks when you are bad at your job.

The third list needs to consist of things that, realistically, you can expect someone to pay you the amount of money you need to make in order to support yourself and your family, as well as achieve your goals that take money. This is where many "dream jobs" turn into nightmares. You think you will be unhappy at a job that just makes money? Try working at a job that DOESN'T make money. That's miserable! So is relying indefinitely on your working spouse, or your parents, to support you. That is OK in the short term, but it gets old when you can't see it ending. And keep in mind that doing something you love, and expecting to get paid for it, and failing to make money at it, has a tendency to turn that love into hatred and dread. Be forewarned.

The things that wind up on all three lists (not just one or two; all three) are the things that you should consider as good ways to make a living. The things that don't make it onto all three lists are things that you might choose to do with some other part of your 24 hours a day, but they are not things you should do for the third of your 24 hour day that needs to be devoted to earning a living.

I love making guitars. I am getting better at it with every new guitar. I love singing for people, and I am pretty good at it. I enjoy being a lawyer, I am pretty good at it, and people pay me money to do it. Being a lawyer is on all three of my lists, but being a luthier or a professional musician? They don't make it on the third list. So, I earn my living as a lawyer and make guitars and music for fun. And yes, overall, I feel I am a much happier person doing this than I would be if I unrealistically expected one of my passions to also earn me a living wage. That's asking a lot of a passion, and depending on what the passion is, it might be asking too much.

In any event, I hope this is of some use to somebody. If I have offended anyone, I apologize. That doesn't mean I back away from my opinions; they stand. Just know that I share them with the intent to help, not hurt.

Intersting.

I have always said: Be careful what you wish for or You might just get it!

What starts out as a passion/hobby can lose all its pleasure once you have to do it for a living-it literally becomes a job which I find takes the "fun" out of it..........

So well said, Don, thanks for posting.

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Agreed. It's always fun to find a fellow lawyer that moonlights as a guitar-maker.

Everything you say is true but then if everyone followed that advice the world would be a much more boring place.

I'll just add my experience. Post university I went to work as a geologist for a large energy company. Geology actually was my dream job but if you have ever worked for a large energy company you would find out that it sucks the very living life right out of you. I was never more happy the day I walked out of that and started doing guitar repairs and building a few guitars too.

But you are right, it's not an easy way to make a living and as such I ended up getting a day job in a totally unrelated business, IT, but I don't mind it at all and I can drink good beer and go beyond the beans and rice.

But still sometimes you just have to push through the tough times to break free. You just have to have the drive and motivation to get through it. The alternative is a job workin' for the man.

The old saying is, necessity is the mother of invention, many people who have put up with soul sucking jobs just to pay off the car that takes you to work so you can make money to pay off the car have out right quit and then are forced to do better things.

It's a double edged sword for sure but I tend to agree. I like being a 'hobbyist' now.

One more point is age has a lot to do with it. If some 21 year old came to me with visions of becoming the next greatest luthier in the world I'd say go for it! If a 45 year old lawyer or real estate agent or who ever just lost their job and wanted to get into I'd highly advise against it.

Interesting thoughts there about that tug of war between what we want to do and what we have to do.
I remember getting a piece of advice from a 4'11" 85 year old lady over 30 years ago that stuck with me a long time. She said "You can do whatever you want to do, as long as you know what what you want to do and are willing to pay the price to do it." And she added that people struggled more with the first condition than the second.
Well, back to my laptop....

Good to hear from you, Jason!

JF--

You bring up excellent points I did not raise, which I think boil down to two related things:

1. Tolerance for risk
2. Whether complete failure (whatever that is) is an acceptable outcome

Tolerance for risk is something we all have to gauge for ourselves. Can we be happy taking a chance on an endeavor? How likely do we want success to be before we take that chance? Our respective individual tolerance levels regarding risk are driven by a lot of things. Like you said, age is a big factor. Am I just getting started in life, or do I have more yesterdays than tomorrows? Another big factor is how others are affected by the risks we take. Am I married? Do I have children? Do those people depend on me to make money?

The related thing, whether complete failure is an acceptable outcome, is something that each of us needs to ask ourselves when we take a chance on an endeavor, because you really can't determine your tolerance for risk unless you take a cold, hard look at the worst case scenario, and assess whether you can stomach it and move on from it, or whether it will destroy you.

If a 23 year old unmarried person without children wants to take a chance on becoming the next big rock star, or luthier, or whatever, that person needs to assess whether they are going to be OK if it doesn't pan out. Will they be OK going back to school, or getting a more traditional job, if they try and utterly fail? The risks are smaller for that person than they are for someone who is married (and the spouse doesn't make enough money to support them both), who has children, who has a lot that can be lost if they fail.

I agree that the world is more interesting because there are some folks in it who are willing to take the "Cortez burning the ships" approach to life. But for every person who succeeds at landing a "dream job" and actually making a good living at it, there are many who fail. Are those who fail happy? Were they able to move in another direction after they failed? I applaud those who take risks, and I especially applaud those who take those risks, fail, and move on. However, I worry that there are a lot of people out there who take risks they should not be taking, and it cripples them. Don't place the bet unless you are prepared for what happens when you lose.

For me, I have a wife and a daughter, and both depend on me (the daughter less so as time goes on). If I had chosen to be a professional musician about 30 years ago, I would have had to be ready for the possibility, the high probability, that my family would have to live in poverty. I am not judging others, but I say for myself that I would not be able to live with myself if my wife and daughter had to be poor because of selfish choices I made. That is an unacceptable outcome for me. So, I did not take that risk. The bet was too expensive for me. Others make different choices.

In the pursuit of happiness does one really want to change the later into the former? Once guitar making is a livelihood all the synonyms rear their ugly heads, mostly because of the events dictated by time constraints and schedules


work
wərk/Submit
noun
1.
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.
"he was tired after a day's work in the fields"
synonyms: labor, toil, slog, drudgery, exertion, effort, industry, service


hob·by1
ˈhäbē/Submit
noun
1.
an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
"her hobbies are reading and gardening"
synonyms: pastime, leisure activity, leisure pursuit;

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

In my experience, both as a son and now, years later, as a father myself, I would say it doesn't really matter what "advice" one may give a young person, because they are not listening.

As for lutherie, I protect my amateur status diligently for myriad reasons, not the least of which is the work/play dichotomy Ken defined above.

_________________
George :-)

I agree with Don's and Ken's points. My take is following one's passions does not necessarily mean pursuing your passion through your employment.
I am lucky that my very nerdy passion in the early 1970s lead me into a very rewarding life at the forefront of the modern computer industry. I was very clearly following my passion. I would have worked for free at a couple of my jobs, just to be involved. I woke up every morning for 30 or so years excited to head into work. On the flip side I grew up in a functioning steel town (East Chicago In.), while the industry jobs were the passion of very few, they provided for a great life. Many of the workers worked to support their live's; they did not consider the time they spent working their life. A decent living allowed them to pursue their passions outside of their employment.

I am clearly an amateur luthier. I do build most of my instrument for paying customers, but only to make sure I do not have a house full of guitars. I am at best running even at this point. As a hobbyist or amateur I get to make decisions that could be detrimental to a professional trying to support themselves and their families. I will not build instruments that I have no interest building, I will not commit to delivery dates, I tend to build so many different style of instruments that I do not amortize the time spent building jigs across multiple copies, the list goes on and on. The biggest point for me is I do not have to run a business.

I love crafting instruments. I can clearly see that for many working as a luthier for someone or working as a self employed luthier can be living the dream. But I also found that many of my dreams had their highest value staying dreams.

_________________
http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Hate to bust anyone's bubble here, but...
I've lived that third list my whole life. It is next to impossible to live "the dream". You can "almost make it" your whole life, but the deck is stacked against you.
That's why the best advice anyone can give is "Don't quit your day job".

I think people run into some pretty big issues when their job defines them, who they are, their passions, and what they love.

Some of the happiest and most content people I know work jobs simply to make money and the rest of their life provides the meaning. Those people can have a horrible job for a period of time and it doesn't necessarily make them hate life or become miserable because their meaning doesn't come from the job.

Some of the unhappiest people I know seek to fill the gap from lack of meaning with work and they end up miserable. The work turns out not to fulfill their fairy tale/utopia dreams and they end up crushed.... Or they retire/get laid off/fired and their reason for living is gone - and they curl up and die.

Others above have given very good advice about evaluating criteria for taking a swing at what you want to work at.. And that's a good place to start. Then - let your hobby be your hobby. It gives you an outlet and fun things to look forward to doing at the end of the day/week but you don't hold a notion that it will put food on the table and pay for your kids education.

Thanks

Totally agree with the whole "Do what you love..." thing being the biggest lie anyone can feed someone. There's too much at stake to risk your future on something as risky as lutherie as a career. Which of course means that you should be careful about what it is that you love to do... there are so many options there for most people that they just perhaps need some guidance as to which of those things will return the most benefits, material or intrinsic.
I think the whole guitar building thing is simply a musical-type person's way of finding a new way to be creative in a lasting way, beyond music (which unless recorded fades from the memory of those who hear it). It's tangible, solid, real... and you can use it for more creativity in that music stuff.
It's art that begets art, which feels like a double-bonus to those who do it. Which supports the point that in the end, most of the benefit is intrinsic, not material. At least for most.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Behind every succesfull luthier there is a wife with a full time paying job that pays the bills

I joke with my wife sometimes when she asks me how my day at work was and I say, 'Well it's better then throwing spears at my food.'

I bet a lot of you are like me and live double lives. We work during the day then come home and work at what we want to work at which is fulfilling our opsession with guitars.

Heck Wayne Henderson was a postal worker all his life and he could sell $10k guitars if he wanted too.

I'm just happy I don't have a job that I have to take home and on vacations with me. You could not pay me enough money to work 50-60 hour weeks with calls on the weekends ever again.

My first reaction is to have you stand a tribunal for your hearsay and have you burned at the stake.

Next thing you’ll know people will complain that “today is the first day of the rest of your life!” is a lie since tomorrow will be the first day of the rest of your life.

My more thoughtful reaction…

One of my daughters (jokingly?) chided me recently that it was a curse to have brought them up telling them they can be whatever they wanted to be. I forget which one said that… one is a starving artist in NYC and the other has dreams of being in the 2020 Olympics (equestrian) and would also be starving if she didn’t work in a restaurant.

And yet… they still both absolutely love what they are doing. Both excel at what they do and have to work incredibly hard to get where they are at. I don’t know if either will ever reach their ultimate goal, but I don’t think either would trade for anything else, and I have to admit to some level of jealousy…for I took the road more oft traveled… and then that Dylan guy wrote all my songs.

Quote: “and it is my honest belief that we would all be better off if we did not think that way.”

Would we? Think of all the innovators who took the different path, or those who were told their goal was unrealistic and persevered, or were told they didn’t have the training, knowledge, skill or whatever to “make it” and had given up? What a drab, backwards world it would be.

If you ask me, the human race doesn’t advance because we fail to dream, we advance because many fail before one succeeds.

Maybe that "Do what you love" was meant just for those who have the dream but were warned of nightmares, who possess the talent but were never encouraged, who have the ambition and self-confidence but are directed by societies grading of what it means to be successful to follow a more traditional role? I don’t know that “Do what you love” was meant for everyone, but there certainly are people out there who should heed it.

Lastly… those steel mill jobs that provided a good living are pretty much gone today. IT, which provided me with a great livelihood, is fraught with layoffs, outsourcing and now “re-badging” – forcing employees to be “consultants” with no benefits. Who’s to say your safer chosen field won’t be automated, or shipped overseas?

Robert--

If I'm to be burned at the stake, I want it to be for my heresy. To be martyred based on a rumor would really bite!

But more seriously, I hear you. I'm glad your daughters are brave and pursuing the things they want. I have one like that, too, and she is right in the middle of figuring out next steps after graduating from college. More power to them, particularly at this stage in their lives. I don't begrudge anybody taking those sorts of chances. I just want to nudge people into actually conducting the analysis of what they really want, how best to get there, and what types of risks they are willing to assume on their way. Blindly trusting that it will all work out financially as long as they are doing what they love is the thing I think we should avoid doing, including our daughters. I don't think our daughters are doing that. It sounds like the three of them have their eyes wide open. Lots of people don't.

By saying that I thought we would all be better off if we did not think that doing what you love will cause the money to follow, I was speaking of each of us individually, not all of us collectively. In other words, I don't know if humanity would be better or worse off if more folks avoided the "do what you love and the money will follow" path. I do think that more individuals would be happier if they did not go down that path, and that was what I was trying to say, not anything about the human race as a whole. Sorry for being ambiguous on that.

Moreover, keep in mind, I'm not trying to dissuade people from doing things they love. I'm trying to dissuade them from doing the things they love and blindly expecting to get paid for doing those things. They might not. And if they are OK with possibly never making any money, that's totally cool with me. Some people don't need to earn a living. But most of us do.

In terms of how innovation occurs, I don't think expecting to make your living some other way than "doing the thing you love" hampers innovation at all. One could argue that it enhances and encourages it. If I am not worried about making money from doing this thing I love, I am free to follow my dream wherever it leads. If I have to make money at this thing I love, maybe managing for the next quarter of profits is what takes over. Food for thought.

I had a very well paying job with great benefits that was mind numbing, day in and day out. I had been doing some woodworking as a hobby at the time, and a co-worker suggested that I should do it as a side business. I registered a business, after doing some research, and ended up with a creative outlet that gave me a mental boost that my full time job didn't provide. That was 27 years ago, and I'm still doing it in my retirement, and still enjoying it.
Although I don't really have any desire to add guitar building as a sideline, I think that it can be a great part time business for many. Nothing will make you sharpen your skill set more than putting your work into the market place, where it will be compared to others.
As far as build it and they will come, that is a fallacy in any endeavour. I told my daughters to always work as hard as they could, and try their best, but that, in itself, was no guarantee for success.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

If the notion, "Do what you love and the money will follow," was true, I'd be a professional trout fisherman and fly-tying entrepeneur. But I wouldn't want to ruin those things by making a job out of them.

Lutherie is a pleasant hobby to me and that's all I'll ever want from it. I'm into boat building and furniture making too, but I wouldn't want to do either one for a living.

I had a friend years ago who loved seafood. Then he got a job cooking in a seafood restaurant. By the time he moved on, he hated seafood. I wouldn't want that to happen to me with lutherie.

_________________
Rick

Don, you have touched so articulately on ingredients that go into important decisions, both individual and collective.
It makes me suspect your talents are being squandered on the legal profession.

Oh how I lust for your ideal analytical decision making. Unfortunately or fortunately, I(and my daughter I fear) are part of a group who's overpowering desires frequently masquerade as discipline.
There is a strange daughter sub theme going on here.


Last weekend I pushed my shaper and band saw apart to make room for another piano in my shop. My daughters colossal practice hours now need a separate space so the rest of us can get some sleep.
A few times, during conversations of colleges that have outstanding piano music programs, I have failed at parental restraint. From my own lips I heard my fathers warnings about not "putting all your eggs in one basket......." On my Childs face I saw a helpless expression I understood at once.
Although extremely smart, rational, and much more open to parental advice than I was, her look says " I hear you. I know what's good for me, but I just can't put down the crack pipe"
School provides little motivation to get out of bed. Piano has her setting her alarm and getting an extra hour of sight-reading practice in before breakfast.

As a young successful athlete I have recieved many of the benefits of following your passion.
With no less effort, I have struggled to make it in the lutherie business.

Despite having lived both sides, I find it hard to suggest with much conviction
to my daughter what she should do.

Thank God it's ultimately up to her.

I would never restrain talent or passion is my kids and have always been willing to support them if they pursued the arts. My son went to a university with a pretty good scholarship for opera, He studied opera and performed in several choirs, but he still left with a BA in economics. My daughter is a talented actress, was able to minor in theater while pursuing a BS in environmental science but had major parts in the school's productions her last 3 years and graduated with the BS. I am just saying she can do both at a university. Save the conservatory until post grad.

But as you say it is her decision. I love seeing any passion in kids now a days,

_________________
http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

[quote="johnparchem
I would never restrain talent or passion is my kids and have always been willing to support them if they pursued the arts. My son went to a university with a pretty good scholarship for opera, He studied opera and performed in several choirs, but he still left with a BA in economics. My daughter is a talented actress, was able to minor in theater while pursuing a BS in environmental science but had major parts in the school's productions her last 3 years and graduated with the BS. I am just saying she can do both at a university. Save the conservatory until post grad.

But as you say it is her decision. I love seeing any passion in kids now a days,[/quote]

I agree John. I would never propose restraining her passion. After all, I'm the poor bastard who moved a second piano into my shop! (#^#$%#! those things are heavy!)
Your kids have wisely put eggs in two baskets. I fully committed to one and have paid a bit of a price.
I would like to encourage my kid to do as yours have done without restraining her passion. A fine line at times.
There are plenty of useless college degrees out there.
But as we also agree, what I suggest is luckily somewhat moot.

I guess I'm living the dream.
Been hobby building for 40 years,
have a lot of equipment,
because I'm a carpenter,
and don't sell any gits I've built.
Lately I've been giving old builds to friends, and young people with talent,
so the gits will be played,
and are out from under the bed.
Making room for more!!!!

I too have a daughter. I will strongly dissuade her from Law School. It was the worst mistake I ever made. Twenty years later, I still feel trapped by that decision (an I consider myself a dang good lawyer). I will dissuade her from a career in music (despite signs of passion and startling talent). I have worked in the Music Industry enough to know it is the most toxic and vile place imaginable. I hope she develops a true and abiding love of using and manipulating people for personal gain. Then at least I'll know she will be happy on Wall Street.

I lost three friends and co-workers all around my age, all males and two were attorneys. One of my friends died as we gave him CPR in a conference room during a business meeting and contract negotiation in Sunnyvale California. This happened over a seven year period and made me start to wonder if what I did for a living, what anyone does for a living was worth all the stress and resulting bad health that some of us can't seem to avoid.

Reporting to your CEO that we lost a very valued friend and employee but got the deal did it for me. I got out after decades of success and promotions when I was 50 and decided to use the time that I had left to have some fun, be healthier, and be surrounded by the music that I love and some pretty great people too.

In the words of Mick Jagger, so I did....

I've never been happier after making the jump from hobbyist to professional, working in the trade, getting grumpier every day, Luthier. Why just yesterday I got to make three people super happy and throw one punk out. A great day!

These days I go to work to rest.... and typically will repair 4-5 guitars daily.

I don't make nearly as much money as I used to. I also don't have to travel and my people have not been dropping dead all around me either.

After driving home from the city and having guitars in my life all day long I pick up a Strat or PRS or one of mine and strum away. I am living MY dream and it all worked out for me very, very well.

I would say that clearly in my case turning a hobby into an occupation was a great move.