Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi, I'm building a tele style guitar out of swamp ash. I'm hoping to finish it with a black satin finish, and I'd like to be able to feel the grain through the finish when its done. Am I correct in assuming a few thin coats of black with a low sheen on top of the bare wood with no grain filler will achieve what I'm aiming for?

Thanks,

Conor

Yes. But the next guy who wants to refinish it in a different color will curse your heritage. Suggest you seal it with something light - like DuPont 1980S water thin sealer. The grain will not fill, but at least it can be refinished later.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Yep, that'll do it....but it won't have much for durability I suspect.

Also, unfilled matte finishes are some of the hardest to pull off. Sanding between coats is difficult and there is no way to deal with nibs or any dust in the finish at the end as there is no cut and buff.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Thanks for the quick replies...

I'm pretty new to building, how much of a consideration do you make for what someone might want to do down the road with a guitar you're building Chris?

Brian, a cabinet maker friend suggested using a post-catalyzed lacquer instead of polyurethane or Nitro. He says the stuff cures super hard and you shouldn't put more than a few coats on anyway or else it will crack. Do you think that might address the durability problem you suggested?

Thanks again,

Conor

Since I've been a repairman who also builds for 39 years, I ALWAYS look to the future of the instrument and any future owners. Don't do anything stupid that can't be reversed or improved. Make sure it's done right - not quickly, cheaply, or without thought for the next guy to play it or work on it. If you create a great guitar that will last.... you want the next guy to think highly of you for caring for the instrument so he could enjoy it, too.

Ultimately, we don't own anything forever - we should just be taking care of it until the next guy. Dig?

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I was a cabinet and furniture maker myself for 30 years before deciding to do this full time.... Post cat lacquer is still basically a nitro based formulation, it just has palsticizers and cross linkers added to speed dry times. It is not much tougher than plain nitro and can still be redissolved with acetone very readily. Now a post cat poly on the other hand like a conversion varnish is a different story altogether.

Another issue is that satin or matte finishes are inherently far softer than their full gloss counterparts. This is due to the addition of a refractory paste that breaks up the light inside the finish film to give that low sheen look while maintaining a smooth, flat surface. Nothing that can be done about this...Satin finish is softer finish. Then there is your lack of a sealer in your proposed system, pigmented coatings in particular have lousy adhesion over bare wood.

The typical schedule for a finish like you want would be;
Prep at 180
Apply sealer (2 coats)
prep at 320
Apply black color coats, enough for hiding (4 coats typical)
prep at 400
Apply 4 coats full gloss
Prep at 400
apply 2 coats satin finish with a de-nib and scuff between coats. Last coat may be reduced up to 25% for flow out.

I do this in a post cat system, all under 5 mils final film thickness.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Uh-oh, now I'm confused. The product I've got is called Presto Elite and on the can it says it's a post-catalyzed lacquer. But my cabinet maker friend did call it a conversion varnish. Is there an easy way to tell the difference?

Welcome to the crazy world of post cat finishes. I took a quick google for the product you mention and it is a lacquer based on the description. If it says lacquer on the label it is likely based on nitrocellulose as a base resin. A true conversion varnish is based on polyesters and is much tougher. But Conversion varnish is a term that gets thrown around a lot and most think any post cat system is one, just like your friend. A true test would be to take a test panel coated with your product and after a 36 hour cure period test it with acetone. A good conversion varnish will be totally unfazed by this but every post cat lacquer I have used will melt.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I love that philosophy...

I talked to my local paint store today and they suggested using a clear version of the same product I'll be using for the color as a sealer. Seems to make sense to me. Will that work?

Conor

Better than nothing, but tell me about your paint store....

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

A lot of pro painters, and cabinet guys in the area use the store. It's a national chain up here in Canada, "Cloverdale Paint". I realize luthiery is a different ball game than that though. I've always found the staff to be knowledgeable and able to answer any questions I have. I'm realizing what is good enough or standard practice for a high end cabinet guy (which is who I've gotten a lot of help from) is not necessarily the same thing as what should be good enough or standard for finishing instruments, but in the end isn't painting wood, painting wood? I mean didn't Leo Fender send somebody to the paint store to get the cheapest paint he could buy?

I don't know about Leo, but it sounds like you're in good hands. I was just worried you were headed down to Ace, or something equally misinformed.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince