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I have a qt of this finish and noticed that it has on the label to not apply over shellac. I'm assuming that this is because most shellac has wax in it. I applied some over dewaxed shellac as a sample with no problems, does anyone know of any issues? I would like to une this finish over shellac with transtint. Thank you for any insight you have! God bless

GF advises not to use it over shellac due to adhesion problems when testing, They used Zinsser sanding sealer, which is basically dewaxed shellac.
I have finished one guitar, EV over 3 lightly scuffed coats of shop made 1Lb shellac with no problems.
GF said if you must use shellac, light and thin.
You're going the right way with test panels.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

For me -----finishing rule number one "follow manufactures compatibility recomendations" no need to take a chance plenty of modern alternatives to shellac. $.02

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Indeed. One problem with with adhesion is that sometimes it doesn't show up for months or more. This I know.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

We've been experimenting with this finish based on discussions with John Greven. Per the instructions, it may be used on raw wood or over a well-dried water-based stain or dyed wood. Not for use over sanding sealer or shellac.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Here's the reply I got from General Finishes when I asked about epoxy fillers some time ago


Tom Monahan <Tom@generalfinishes.com> 08/31/15 at 12:58 PM
To kencierp@yahoo.com
Message body

Enduro Var is NOT compatible with shellac. You will have adhesion failure. It can be used over epoxy. AS pore fillers go Timbermate or Color Tone from Stew-Mac works fine with our products.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Ken,

I have only once tried a waterbased product so likely this is user error but. . . do you have any trouble with enduro var swelling hide glue lines? When I used water based poly whey, all of my HHG lines got all wonky, I couldn't really tell if the glue line was swelling at a different rate than the wood or the line was not accepting finish. All the glue lines were invisible in the white and looked terrible once I started applying finish. I sanded it off and went with FP and the lines were invisible again. Perhaps the epoxy protects against this?

I've been considering enduro var but my previous experience has left me leery of water based stuff.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Bryan since I don't use protein adhesives, can't help with that question. For sure though, the water component does call for more care when applying. I remember my first efforts years back with Hydro-coat -- what a mess, raised grain, puffy joints actually distorted the sound board (like a balloon)!

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Thanks. Again this is probably a stupid question but since I have no Wb experience. . . by "more care when applying" what does that entail? Putting the first coat or two on very thin? Something else?

Thanks again.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

FWIW, I've been putting 2-3 light coats on the top only first then very lightly leveling it. Then commence with the schedule. This was recommended by Mike O'Melia because of the grain in spruce getting raised by the water.

I use z-poxy on the body and wood rosette.

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I just make sure that sound hole and neck bolt holes are sealed to help prevent moisture from getting inside. Light first coats for sure, I have a Halogen and warm forced air heater to dry the air and the surfaces. I am told by General Finishes that even with the added quick dry measures it still takes about a week for the Enduro to completely cure.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

+1 on the heater. I'm using a small heater with a fan in the "curing room", a.k.a. the basement bathroom ...and keeping the temp around 78. I was also told by GF that 5-7 days before level and buff is the minimum.

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Any thoughts on the dampening qualities of EnduroVar or the lack thereof? Versus nitro or shellac?

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Craig Bumgarner

Bumgarner Guitar Blog

John Greven (and other high line makers) use Enduro Var on their instruments -- I am sure they have little concern regarding the damping issues.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

We've had good success with Enduro-Var, and are testing Pro Topcoat where a colorless finish is needed. Both finishes dry harder than lacquer, and can be aggressively buffed without issue. Thus far, we have seen no real issues.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

The topcoat from General Finishes or is there a supplier with a product called "Pro Topcoat"? Searching for that term I found something from DuPont but I'm not sure that is it.


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Woodie, have you noticed any difference in the gloss between Enduro-Var and Top Coat?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Oops...left out a word! The other finish is the Pro Image Topcoat, which is one of General's flooring products in a urethane. We are playing with this to see if we can find a durable satin that will not gloss due to contact over time. We've also done some High Performance Topcoat on non-instrument items, and that finish - an urethane/acrylic - is impressing us with hardness and number of coats to get to a good finish. Thus far, the only reasons not to go with Enduro-Var appear to be the amber coloring and high cost versus lacquer.

We are using Enduro-Var in gloss, and Pro Image Topcoat in a satin, so no direct comparison - different applications here...we may end up just going to satin Enduro-Var for necks and gloss for bodies, but it will take a while to see how the example guitars work out for their owners. The one thing I really like about High Performance - is the ease of brush application and the fast build...three coats provides a good, protective finish for non-instrument work, and even after aggressive buffing, the semi-gloss stays a semi-gloss.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Interesting, thanks Woodie. My first guitar was finished in a water based floor varnish. Still surviving well, but that was a gloss.
I've used matt enduro-var for a whole guitar. looking forward to seeing it again later this year.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Has anyone tried Enduro Clear Poly on a guitar? I use it for cabinetry when I don't want the amber hue of EnduroVar.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Thanks for the clarification!

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I've heard that John Greven did a write up on his procedure for Enduro Var. Anyone know how to get to it?

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

I went searching for it a while back and I think it's in an issue of AL. Maybe someone here has back issues and could look?

Edited: Maybe this one? http://www.luth.org/back_issue/al117-120/al118.html

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Thanks Brad, I'll look into it!

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Yep. The Greven piece was separated over two issues. I ordered them last summer when I was experimenting and trying to settle on a finish. I believe the write-up on Enduro-Var is in the second of the two, but I'll double check tonight or tomorrow afternoon.