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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:39 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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One more simple and yet very serviceable thing to do, bevel those fret slot edges so when a future repairman/woman pulls a fret out they don't take a lot of chips out with it.



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:51 am 
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Thanks everyone who posted many exc tips . A youtuber who does exc videos on guitar repair twoodfrd. for those interested. in repair.



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:33 am 
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jfmckenna wrote:
One more simple and yet very serviceable thing to do, bevel those fret slot edges so when a future repairman/woman pulls a fret out they don't take a lot of chips out with it.


Yep although if using thin CA and clamping cauls while fretting the thin CA also serves to for lack of a better word stratify the fret slot edges and slots making them more resistant to losing a chip. We have always used thin CA and there are certainly other ways to do it like HHG is a great choice.

I've mentioned the Korean Church students that we have to refret their stainless frets annually and sometimes more often. It's rare that we get a chance to see how serviceable our own work is but with these guys who need a date... we find that the frets that we glued in with thin CA come out very cleanly and easily with no fret slot edge chipping. We use Weller soldering guns with a groove filed in the business end and lately a drop of solder too to help transfer the heat from the gun tip to the fret crown. Removal is very clean with no fret slot edge beveling needed by us.

I'll add because it's very related most folks think that the nippers aka "pullers" are used to "pull" frets. Sure you can do that but don't, that's how boards get chipped. Take a minute to hold them upside down and examine the jaws as you close them. You will see beveled edges inside the jaws that also serve to gently "lift" the fret out of the slot especially when the tool's face is firmly in contact with the board. That contact with the board also keeps chips in their place. So no pulling but try using the tool as intended and "lifting" frets with the tool in contact with the board and chips will for the most part become a thing of the past except on uppty, old ebony boards.

BTW ebony is not the most ideal fret board material but I'm digressing again. Whomever started using it should be dug up and shot, twice.

I would recommend beveling edges for other glues though and that's a good recommendation to make JF, thanks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:12 am 
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Wanted to add because I just thought of it a bead of water along side the fret that we are lifting will help keep a chip even on old ebony that wants to fly across the room and be forever lost... from doing that. They may still lift but when wet they tend to stay in place making gluing the sucker back down with thin CA easy peezy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:39 am 
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Hesh wrote:
. . . a chip . . . that wants to fly across the room and be forever lost...


A recurring nightmare in my shop, and not just chips. Small screws, washers, etc. When it happens, I cuss so hard the dog runs upstairs. Like I need more things to bend over and pick up, assuming I can even find it . . .



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:31 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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We've got a rare earth magnet taped to a stick about 3' long that is a huge help in finding lost stuff on our floor. Rare earth magnets do wonders when you just sucked up a screw in your vac too and need to go through the bag...

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:13 am 
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Hesh wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
BTW ebony is not the most ideal fret board material but I'm digressing again. Whomever started using it should be dug up and shot, twice.

Unfortunately many people think it is the "only" fretboard wood that is acceptable to them. I have run across several people who will not even consider an alternate material.
Happily that is not as prevalent as it once was, though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:59 am 
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Mike Baker wrote:
Hesh wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
BTW ebony is not the most ideal fret board material but I'm digressing again. Whomever started using it should be dug up and shot, twice.

Unfortunately many people think it is the "only" fretboard wood that is acceptable to them. I have run across several people who will not even consider an alternate material.
Happily that is not as prevalent as it once was, though.


Hey Mike:

Well they better get used to it because all black ebony is very much something that is much more difficult to find and it never was a great material anyway because of how it chips easily.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:22 pm 
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I agree that ebony boards are not the easiest to refret, but I would not go that far and say jet black ebony never was a great material. To me it still is one of the biggest wonders of the nature and makes the most beautiful boards there is!



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:02 pm 
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Hesh wrote:
BTW ebony is not the most ideal fret board material but I'm digressing again. Whomever started using it should be dug up and shot, twice.

I made a new thread to discuss this: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52134
Do you think there is an ideal wood, or just various ones that are all-around better than ebony, but each have their own weak points?



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:02 pm 
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No disrespect intended to anyone at all, but I just had a quiet chuckle to myself remembering a well known maker's "Où se trouve" video when he made a guitar with 2 CF bars in the neck, fits a double acting truss rod and puts CA on top, followed by a filler strip and more CA, topped by an Ebony FB. Then he uses HHG for lattice braces "to make any work on the guitar easier later" (I paraphrase) while lapping the braces over the bridge plate, and finishes all the inside before closing the box.
Hesh's "Perfect Storm" - ?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:12 pm 
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J.L.K. Vesa wrote:
I agree that ebony boards are not the easiest to refret, but I would not go that far and say jet black ebony never was a great material. To me it still is one of the biggest wonders of the nature and makes the most beautiful boards there is!


It chips easily and that makes it not overly suitable for something that has to be serviced in the future such as a fretboard. Agree it's a wonder and agree it's beautiful but that's not the concern of my comments in respect to serviceability.

Rosewood boards are much less prone to chipping and very suitable in other properties. There are others too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:19 pm 
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DennisK wrote:
Hesh wrote:
BTW ebony is not the most ideal fret board material but I'm digressing again. Whomever started using it should be dug up and shot, twice.

I made a new thread to discuss this: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=52134
Do you think there is an ideal wood, or just various ones that are all-around better than ebony, but each have their own weak points?


Yes there are more suitable woods of which rosewoods, many of them and maple chip much less than ebony and are not overly difficult to find with some exceptions.

Not the biggest fan of ebony bridges either but for other reasons but that's not what I would like this thread to focus on.

My lens for now is strictly serviceability and suitability for what should be expected to need to be done in terms of future maintenance and serviceability.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:29 pm 
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Colin North wrote:
No disrespect intended to anyone at all, but I just had a quiet chuckle to myself remembering a well known maker's "Où se trouve" video when he made a guitar with 2 CF bars in the neck, fits a double acting truss rod and puts CA on top, followed by a filler strip and more CA, topped by an Ebony FB. Then he uses HHG for lattice braces "to make any work on the guitar easier later" (I paraphrase) while lapping the braces over the bridge plate, and finishes all the inside before closing the box.
Hesh's "Perfect Storm" - ?


That's great and gives us someone to swear at and make fun of all day as we b**** about builders and generally act arrogant and superior when we are far from either. :).

Colin you build and do repair work and my bet is that the repair work has had an influence on your building. If you would like to share your experiences please do.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:24 pm 
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Hesh wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:
Hesh, I am only Guilty of one sin on your list and that is clearing the full area under the bridge.
You made me a convert to unslotted pins a long time ago, never looked back....
I figured the rest out on my own in the last 45 years...


Hey Brad! I've learned a lot from you though the years and you've been at this longer than I have too. My personal OM is built with BRW that I got from you back in the day and it's doing great. She says hello :)

One sin is not much (or I had better be stockpiling sun screen...) and you know none of this should be considered inflexible or always how to proceed. I can think of several of the top repair shops in the country that clear all the finish out from under a bridge making this a pretty minor offense and at least there is clear benefit to doing this too by expanding gluing surface.

The only place where it may compromise a future repair is it's easier in the removal or reglue process to have the cleared finish show and/or some finish touch up will be required. No biggie and I'll admit that the rabbited pocket thing that we and Collings do is not all that easy to do and you have to be tooled up to do it too.

With these considerations in mind I'm likely in the camp of clearing nearly to the perimeter, not rabbiting unless you can and do meaning you are tooled up for it and going for a decent, non-forced fit.

Anyway again no biggie and glad to hear that you use unslotted pins, that's huge and slotted pins are a very common cause of damage to guitars AND a major reason for a guitar to lift a bridge when the damaged pin holes attempt to connect and cause a crease that throws the bridge topside. We see it every day.

Thanks for your comments Brad.



Hi Hesh,

Yes, I certainly remember selling you that set,I made a classical out of the sister set.It was nice stuff. Glad it and you are doing well!



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:33 am 
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Hesh wrote:
Colin North wrote:
No disrespect intended ....................before closing the box.
Hesh's "Perfect Storm" - ?


That's great …………………….. are far from either. :).

Colin you build and do repair work and my bet is that the repair work has had an influence on your building. If you would like to share your experiences please do.


Hesh, the bulk of my repair work is of course fret jobs and setups, so I'm getting a lot more "practice" than just my own builds.
My building processes (and repair/servicing work) have been based largely on what I've picked up from the OLF as good practice, (although I'm still a bit "woobly" around HHG!)
Of course I've seen problems with several of the issues posted here but have nothing like the experience of most veteran OLFers.
P.S. Dave letting you do compression refrets yet? laughing6-hehe

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:32 am 
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Colin North wrote:
Hesh wrote:
Colin North wrote:
No disrespect intended ....................before closing the box.
Hesh's "Perfect Storm" - ?


That's great …………………….. are far from either. :).

Colin you build and do repair work and my bet is that the repair work has had an influence on your building. If you would like to share your experiences please do.


Hesh, the bulk of my repair work is of course fret jobs and setups, so I'm getting a lot more "practice" than just my own builds.
My building processes (and repair/servicing work) have been based largely on what I've picked up from the OLF as good practice, (although I'm still a bit "woobly" around HHG!)
Of course I've seen problems with several of the issues posted here but have nothing like the experience of most veteran OLFers.
P.S. Dave letting you do compression refrets yet? laughing6-hehe


laughing6-hehe Yeah been doing compression refrets for a long time now, easy peezy. We have so very much volume of work coming our way that everyone has to be a jack of all trades although Dave won't let me use his expensive soldering iron still..... You saw the L-OO that be made entirely out of soldered, too-******-to-use-old-fretwire didn't you? If not let me know I'll post pics. We got him a high-end soldering station and he hard to try it out with making a guitar out of fret wire and solder. It's on display at our shop and people try to buy it all of the time.

You bring up a great point. When I was a builder only every time I got to make a nut or do fretting could be a while since the last time I did it since I had to build a guitar to get the opportunity. Even the year I built 26 Heshtones fretting every two weeks or so helped but when still learning it was not enough for Mr. I benefit from repetition here.

Anyway the last guitars that I ever built I kept hearing Dave in my head about what was serviceable and what wasn't and as you can see it had an impact on me.....:)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:35 am 
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No, I've not seen any pics of that one - Love to see some.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:55 pm 
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On gluing nuts:
When I was learning I was taught that you should not glue in the nut at all. If it's tapered to be very slightly wider on the bass side it wedges into it's slot and stays in place without any glue, but is easy to remove. Yes, of course you have to know the code....

Violin nuts don't sit in a slot, and need to be glued on. A small drop of glue on the end of the fingerboard keeps then from shifting sideways, and string pressure does the rest. When necessary you can do the same with a guitar nut of course.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:03 pm 
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On vlns1 small dab of hhg facing the top end of fb is all that is needed



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:47 pm 
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Woodie G wrote:
(Micro rant) When you create a bridge design that fails, don't dismiss your customer's concerns and offer some paltry amount for someone else to fix your screw-up. Person-up and make it right.

Sounds like one of those newfangled AGF guitars might have been through your shop.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:52 pm 
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Alan Carruth wrote:
On gluing nuts:
When I was learning I was taught that you should not glue in the nut at all.

What's the reason for not gluing a nut?



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:00 pm 
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AndyB wrote:
Woodie G wrote:
(Micro rant) When you create a bridge design that fails, don't dismiss your customer's concerns and offer some paltry amount for someone else to fix your screw-up. Person-up and make it right.

Sounds like one of those newfangled AGF guitars might have been through your shop.


As a 10+ year former member of the AGF I think I know exactly what you're talking about ha!

Hesh wrote:
laughing6-hehe Yeah been doing compression refrets for a long time now, easy peezy. We have so very much volume of work coming our way that everyone has to be a jack of all trades although Dave won't let me use his expensive soldering iron still..... You saw the L-OO that be made entirely out of soldered, too-******-to-use-old-fretwire didn't you? If not let me know I'll post pics. We got him a high-end soldering station and he hard to try it out with making a guitar out of fret wire and solder. It's on display at our shop and people try to buy it all of the time.


I want to see this creature you describe.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Hesh wrote:
Even the year I built 26 Heshtones fretting every two weeks or so helped

That's a hefty load of work! I'm not sure what would drive me nuts more, that much finishing or that much neck making!

Taking guitars in for repair definitely increases a builder's learning through repetition.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:38 am 
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Alan Carruth wrote:
On gluing nuts:
When I was learning I was taught that you should not glue in the nut at all. If it's tapered to be very slightly wider on the bass side it wedges into it's slot and stays in place without any glue, but is easy to remove. Yes, of course you have to know the code....

Violin nuts don't sit in a slot, and need to be glued on. A small drop of glue on the end of the fingerboard keeps then from shifting sideways, and string pressure does the rest. When necessary you can do the same with a guitar nut of course.


Hey Al, hope that you are doing great.

Some guitars such as many from the Godin line these days don't have head plates and as such there is no nut channel at all. If we didn't use a drop, only one drop of glue it would fall out or worse slide sideways under string tension.

Mario used to say that he crafted his nuts to snap in place which is similar to what you suggested.

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