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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:21 am 
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Building a hybrid nylon string -
Anyone gluing flat/un-radiused fan bracing to a soundboard in a solera/radius dish?
Does it hold the radius after drying?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:52 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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"Does it hold the radius after drying?"

Yes, it holds the shape - although when I use a solera the arching is not a true radius.



These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: Colin North (Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:25 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:24 am 
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I switched to flat braces after my first classical, At a GAL 6 or 9 years ago I heard a talk by Eugene Clark where he suggested keeping the fans unradiused. He said they would spring back about 50% so he makes the dish about 2x deeper. I found this is true but I have found that my 2 mm deep dish still gives me a 2 mm or so dome with string tension. So I switched to flat braces without deepening my dish. My top are relatively thin at 2 - 2.2 mm. A thicker top may have more spring back.

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These users thanked the author johnparchem for the post: Colin North (Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:26 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:40 am 
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Really? If you just clamp flat braces to the top in a radius dish the top will conform and stay that way? I would have thought it would have sprung back flat.

I've always glued them on flat then glued in the radiused transverse bar.

I wonder what the stress imparted into the top by clamping flat braces to a dish would do to the tone of the guitar?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:42 am 
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Like Clay, my solera is more of a parabola than a dish. I use different configurations and thicknesses of tops and bracing depending of whether it's a classic or flamenco but have always glued flat braces. The tops take the shape of the solera regardless of type of wood, thickness, taper or brace configuration.



These users thanked the author jshelton for the post: Colin North (Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:26 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:50 am 
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jfmckenna wrote:
... I wonder what the stress imparted into the top by clamping flat braces to a dish would do to the tone of the guitar?


Even ignoring the braces a radiused top imparts stress, the flat braces pressed into a dish is just an incremental amount of tension. A guitar is all about stress or tension. A bit more pre loading of the top may improve the performance of the top.

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These users thanked the author johnparchem for the post (total 2): Colin North (Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:26 am) • dpetrzelka (Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:20 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:38 am 
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That's what I thought folks, perfect.
Reason I'm asking is this will be a hybrid, nylon strings but bolt-on neck and will be constructed using radius dishes much the same as a steel string.
The soundboard will have a bridge patch, and if I use flat fan bracing it makes taking a check out of the fan braces for it simple.
Have to keep the humidity firmly under control too, winter makes it easier to keep it down.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:05 pm 
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One highly regarded guitarmaker for nylon string guitars and lutes here in Germany told me, he is gluing the already curved braces on the top, without using a dish, just on a flat surface. When taken of the clamps, of course the top bends according to the curve on the braces. Also nice....


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:43 pm 
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The two classical makers I studied under in the south of Spain both glued flat braces to their tops. Stephen Hill even used a 6 meter radius dish to glue the fan braces instead of straight into the solera and used a hair dryer to warp the top prior to brace glueing (apparently it's the Granada secret)



These users thanked the author oval soundhole for the post: Colin North (Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:21 pm)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:55 pm 
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A well-known builder I know glues his braces flat after the top has acclimated to 8% RH. When the braced top is returned to the main shop with his normal 40-45% RH, the top expands and he gets his dome.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:59 am 
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What thickness of flat braces?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:37 am 
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wbergman wrote:
What thickness of flat braces?

From what I've seen, talking Classicals, seems to be 6mm or less in height (Courtnall, Making Master Guitars )

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:17 am 
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When you say flat braces you mean fan braces right? I can't imagine imparting an arch into the fan braces becasue they are so small. I've only built about a dozen classical guitars but I always glued the fan braces on flat and arched the lower transverse brace to give the top it's shape, and strength.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:57 am 
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The very first article I saw on building classicals, the builder shaped the fan brace on the glue side to the desired arch. Each brace was glued with a straight, stiff backer on the brace and a thin flexible backer was used on the top of the guitar, so the top was drawn down to the curve. Regular clamps. No work board was used.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:37 pm 
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I glue my 4-5mm tall braces in the go-bar not pre arched.
the top arch holds when removed from the dish.
A The #1 & 2 braces are not glued till the top gets to the solera.

Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Are the #1 & 2 braces transverse braces?
Possibly UTB and a transverse?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:25 pm 
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Yes.
#1 is slightly arched .
# 2 is arched to fit the solera .
IT'S NOT THE SAME ARCH AS THE FANS

I use a radial bracing now-all braces below #2 are arched in the go-bar.
same as trad. bracing



Mc

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:49 pm 
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THANK YOU.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


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