Official Luthiers Forum!

Does anyone use Fish Glue to attach the top to the sides?
It would seem to have the advantages of hot hide glue with a longer open time.

_________________
Formerly know as Mandodiddle.

Some people have reported fish glue to be less resistant to high humidity conditions than hot hide glue so I have not used it.

titebond/titebond extend. Known and tested. No reason to go into unknown territory.

_________________
Peter Havriluk

been using it for 20 yr no issue
Wayne uses it
there are issues if you use the wrong stuff. Not all fish glue is the same.
How many here actually used it??? and what did you use?

I use High Tack fish glue. Been using it for braces and attaching top and back.

you need to allow 18 to24 hr clamp time. Be sure your joints mate well


I had one guitar that had some issues after the owner thew a wet rag into the guitar for humidity. And in that case any glue would fail.



NOTE: Fish glue and Hide glue are drying glues. In plain words they must dry out for the glue to be 100% effective. So clamping time is important. Your surfaces must be well mated.

There is no reason not to stay with tight bond as that is a proven glue used in many production shops

Glues to avoid
bottled hide glue
tite bond 2 3 4 just use the original.

also white elmers is a good glue as well

The glue you choose needs to be reversible . Tite bond will separate at about 145F as fish and hide .

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I have used it on some things. A guy at a violin shop that I showed an instrument to years ago gave me a small bottle of fish glue. He puts a larger bottle into small bottles, and keeps them in a fridge. I like the stickiness. I does dry slower so you have to clamp it.

I did glue the top on the viola I just finished with HHG just by clamping it. I had a thin size on both ribs and belly. I clamped it all up, and brushed water around the sides to clean the ribs. I put it on the electric baseboard heater to get it good and hot to glue, flipping to get both side hot.

I couldn't pull it apart! Worked amazingly well.

_________________
Why be normal?

If you use fish glue, use a proven brand, and be sure to MIX WELL before using.

If you are taking glue from a large container and putting it into a smaller container, be sure to mix the glue in the larger container very well, before the transfer. Each time you use the small container, just slowly flip it end over, end 8 or 10 times, to mix it thoroughly. It is a little too thick for shaking, and stirring a small bottle is a pain, because the screw on lid will always be stuck.:>)

That's why I like mixing 1/4, 1/2, or a teaspoon of glue, with 3/4, 1,5 teaspoons, or a tablespoon of water. A teaspoon will last me a long time, or do joins on even an archtop. 3:1 it is a little thin at first, but it doesn't Gell so fast. After heating a few times it is about perfect. Maybe theoretically not as strong; but I mix up fresh most of the time.

I'm doing ribs, and liners, and an extra "binding" on a viola ribcage now. So it is maybe 4 little pieces of wood to glue each day. I don't see them going anywhere. A teaspoon of glue and a tablespoon of water fills up a small plastic medicine cup. I float it on the hot water can, in a cutout to keep it from tipping, with a jar on top.

Does anyone sell fish glue in small containers. Mine from StewMac is in a large tube, and it is probably 4 years old or more. I think that you can by it dehydrated, but I haven't checked into it. The Japanese use it?

_________________
Why be normal?

In my experience fish glue is a lot tougher than HHG, and hence harder to get apart using the usual methods that work for hide glue, which take advantage of it's brittle nature.

I do. Clamp with gobars and a halo. Braces too. Leave overnight or more.

I use it for many things. My experience parallels that of John and Alan.

_________________
Tim Allen
"Never hurry, never rest."

Hot hide's open time is easy to work around when closing the box. Apply 192g to both rim and plate, align in the go-bar deck, load the deck with clamping caul and bars, then warm the joint with a heat gun. Do the back first, let things set for 10-15 minutes, then de-clamp, swap dishes, and get the top on. A good blast of heat gun into the soundhole will keep things from cooling off too much before a final exterior pass or two around the joint. My chosen method before I developed the speed to get things closed and clamped with just some preheating and a warmish shop.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

Seconded Woodie's idea that you can use HHG to close a box. Remember many companies used HHG for everything back in the day they didn't have modern glues.

The most interesting method that I have ever seen to use HHG to close a box was from Mario and he made a video of him doing it and maybe someone can find it it was once posted on the OLF.

Mario exploited the idea of glue viscosity and thicker viscosity in his method which was the fascinating part to me. He pre heated like Woodie suggests and then used thicker viscosity of HHG and laid down a heavy, thick bead on the top side of the rim. He did not apply to the top at all but IIRC he did preheat the top with a heat gun as well as the rim.

Mario relied on the thicker viscosity of his HHG to form a thick, tall bead around the rim that the outer layer would cool first thusly encasing the inner layer of liquid glue and helping to keep it warm a bit longer.

Think Tylenol gelcaps....

Then he places the back, preheated again, on the proud bead/gelcap all around the rim and as he applies the clamps the bead is broken, the liquid, HHG runs out and distributes on all the horizontal surfaces of the linings and sides with excess squeeze out visible and ready to be wiped up. I think he also reheated the rim with the heat gun just where the back met the rim to be sure the liquid HHG did flow everywhere and then he called it a day.

Beautiful! I may have some of his method wrong of course it was over ten years ago and I only saw this video once.

I'd ask him, we are friends on Facebook if he still has the video but he was one of the pros who left the OLF because of the know it alls who don't and I understand how he feels about this and respect him greatly.

But what a great method.

One last thing I think the world of my friend John Hall and I was not going to bring it up but there are many posts here on the OLF of fish glue failures and when this is brought up it often devolves when someone tries to protect what they believe for better or worse.

We used it, bought directly from Norland who was the only maker stateside back 18 years ago when we bought ours and they may be still I'm not up on it. We are in Michigan and have a thing called or used to have a thing called winter. I can't remember the exact numbers but within 6 months, seasonal change we had a bridge lift. We had used Fish glue, handled it exactly as Norland prescribes and even parted it out into sterilized Mason jars so the bulk would stay fresh and we stored it in our fridge.

Then another lifted bridge came back and of course we repaired this at no charge and with HHG. We went though our receipts and proactively contacted a two dozen of so bridge reglue clients and offered them free reglues with HHG. Of the maybe 9 that came back there were lifted back edges on three of them IIRC that had not been noticed yet by the owners.

We pitched or Fish glue and never used it again for anything.

So we are not alone I would estimate 2 dozen posts on the OLF of people who had Fish not hold up when the humidity rises even though it never harmed the fish swimming in the ocean and they did not fall apart...

If your instrument may sometime in it's life live where the humidity may be higher I would not recommend Fish glue use at all and especially for bridges. It really set us back and cost us in both opportunity costs and our reputation and we can't have that.

Now that someone came out as not being a fish fan others may relate what fell apart for them.

But back to HHG it's a great solution and it can be fun too to learn how to work with it. We've always fancied a hot room like the violin makers use where it's 125F maybe and you do your gluing in your boxers unless of course you go commando.

Lastly if you build a classical with less tension than a steel string, keep the instrument in a humidity controlled case and never really subject it to the rigors of a traveling, gigging musical Fish may work for you but I still would not recommend it.

I'm sad to have to share this Fish was in all other ways very attractive including how hard it dries and it still is reversible.

I have a bit of a dispute unfortunately happening over one of my tutorials more specifically the nut slots. What is behind the dispute is a very basic idea that I doubt the other parties would even agree is in play here. You do not set-up a guitar for the best case situation with the light hitters you set up a guitar in some cases for Pete Townshend and if you don't know how someone hits you favor the higher side so they don't have to come back unless it's with a second guitar for more set-up.

Likewise do you build for the idea that it will be kept in a humidity controlled case, adult owned, cared for very well and never leave the house? Or do you build for one of my clients who did leave a Heshtone in a hot car in Nashville for a week while he was doing session work and got drunk and put in jail? My bridge did lift by the way and it was glued with HHG.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Here you go, Hesh - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC78Z9zFG0I

Judging by the fact that Mario plays a lot of Prine, JTE and even Blaze Foley (love playing Clay Pigeons!), I bet we would have been friends here on the OLF.

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

Brad you are a mensch! Thank You and I hope that I don't lean on you too much you have as much it seems memory of what's this forum as I do!

You would like Mario and he would like and respect you too. Back when the forum had a different crew that seemed to leave more of our egos, not always but much of the time at home in favor of letting the folks who walk the walk walk the walk here Mario was perhaps the one nearly everyone listened to more than anyone else. He had a five year waiting list for his superb guitars.

I fought with him too like cats and dogs but when I got to meet him and he came to Ann Arbor to our gathering that attracted nearly 50 OLFers we both lightened up and found something to like about the other one. I freely admit that our disagreements were nearly if not all my fault so I have been on both sides of the dispute as to why the OLF can't retain highly contributing pro Luthiers. My fighting with Mario harmed everyone on the forum, sadly I had to learn that.

Anyway thanks man if your weather is like mine we have the best day of the year happening out there!

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars