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Hehe, before you say anything, I have done my research both on the web, on MIMF and on this yer forum...

I have come to the decision with my cittern build that I want to go with a pinless bridge, bolted and glued with two small bolts to the bridge plate, for the reason that I don't want to do a tailpiece, and I am not terribly confident that I would create 8 or ten neat "rows" of bridge pin holes!!!

(four or five course with around 40-46mm nut width respectivley, I have not yet decided because of not REALLY knowing how the guitar top will cope)

I have studied photographs of pinless bridges on the web and not yet found one that satifies my curiosity in one particular area, which leads me to this question...

Where the holes are drilled at an angle to the back of the bridge, does that area need to be thicker? I have an 8mm thick bridge blank, nicely quartersawn. To illustrate my question, here's....an illustration, courtesy of Mr. Lowden!!



Basically does the back of the bridge (ringed in red) have to be slightly higher than the front of the bridge? (highlighted in yellow). Especially bearing in mind that 8 or ten small holes for strings will be drilled through, needing the extra density?

Cheers for reading this.

I'm sure Dave White will chime in at some point, he makes a very nice pin-less bridge design IMO.

But I do have a picture of his so I thought I would post it for you Sam, and let Dave explain.



He also makes a nice cittern and can most likely answer any and all questions you have with that too.

Dave is really just a great guy ain't he

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You can also see from his picture that there is no noticeable difference in the height at the back of the bridge versus the front.

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"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Sam,
I use a pinless design. I don't make the back any thicker than the front.
My bridge height is usually 3/8" or just slightly lower. When drilling the
holes make sure that they are just are at center height or a little lower -
this will ensure that you have enough wood above the strings to keep
everything together.

I have recently redesigned my bridge but you can see a couple pictures of
the old design here:

Link

Best of Luck,
Simon

Rod,

You're too kind.

Sam,

On my guitar-cittern as you know I did a pinned bridge with 5 holes and a pair of strings in each hole, but pinless ones have stayed on for a number of years on my guitar-bouzouki. I was just a little nervous with the extra pair of strigs on the cittern. Some time back I did a photo-documentary of how I do my pinless bridges for another OLF'er in a .doc file but as the pics are working here again I'll post it for you here:

The bridge blank is 155mm x 35mm x 10mm – this one is Kingwood (Dalbergia cearensis) normally I use Macassar ebony - and the bottom has been profiled to match the guitar top. I do this by attaching 120 grit sandpaper slightly wider and bigger than the bridge blank to the top in the correct place with double sided tape, covering the bottom of the bridge with chalk dust, and then sanding until all the chalk dust has gone. I then route the saddle slots in the bridge blank using a 3mm double flute bit. The lowest edge of the E & B string saddle is 5mm approx from the front of the bridge. A groove between 3mm and 4mm deep is then routed with the front edge 19mm from the bridge’s leading edge. I use a 5mm bit for this. The bridge shape is then roughly cut out with a bandsaw:



Next I route the rear recess to hold the string ball ends. Again I use the 5mm routing bit:





The string positions are marked and the bridge is then put in the jig to drill the string holes. This is just 2 pieces of mahogany making an angle of 80° from the horizontal. The bridge is held in the jig with double sided tape. Using my drill press the string holes are drilled – 2mm for strings 1-4 and 2.5mm for strings 5-6. I need to make a better jig with brass drill guides or something similar as it is hard to get the holes directly centred. As you will see from the picture the 4th string is a little high, but the bridge will work fine and this is for my own personal guitar:





Next the front edge of the groove in the top of the bridge is ramped where it rises to meet the saddle part:











My approach is very rough and ready and not in the league of a lot of the makers on the OLF, but I hope this helps.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Oh yes ... I used a pinless one on my short-scale guitar-cittern as rod has reminded me:

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Hi Dave,
If I might make a suggestion for a good drilling setup. Just take a block
of wood, clamp it to your drill press table, and use it for a fence. That
way, the spacing is locked down. It has worked really well for me and is
super easy to set up.

By the way, that cittern looks awesome!!!

Peace Out,
Simon

Thankyou very much everyone for commenting in this thread.

Dave, your tutorial is nothing short of excellent. Thankyou very much! And what a beautiful cittern. I know I have seem your instruments before, but wow!!!

Well I have a few blanks to fall back on should I faff it up.

How thick is your bridge blank? It looks like I might have to add a lamination on the back of the bridge to increase the thickness of my 8mm blank

Thanks again everyone. I never cease to be amazed by the amount of great advice on this site.

Simon,

Thanks for the suggestion. The "wandering" is more to do with the fact that I only have a cheap drill-press andthere is too much play in the drill. I find it better whwn the bridge is rotated 90degrees compared with the photo I posted. I have now moved over to pinned bridges but if I were to make more pinless I think I would build a jig based around the two mahogany blocks with a brass drill guide in it and a way of moving the bridge along it and stopping it to give the string spacing - to cope with different bridge string spacing and multi course string instruments.

Sam,

8mm may be OK for you - it all depends on the neck angle and curvature you have on the top. My tops have big arches and the bridge area is a little more lower than the neck block than "normal" so I need slightly thicker bridge blanks. By the time it is sanded out and shaped, the centre of the bridge is around 9mm of the top. I suspect that you may have enough wriggle room with 8mm and the right saddle height.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

i would agree that the descriptions of the techniques for making a pinless bridge posted above are very clear and most useful.

however i don't think anyone really addressed your primary point. if your decision to go pinless is due to worries about drilling, i can only say that drilling a pinned bridge is easier than drilling a pinless version.

also most of the pinless bridges i've seen actually taper to the rear much like their pinned siblings.

and why would you want to use ... errr...   ah... arrggghhhh... it hurts to even say it....bolts!!!!!

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael]

however i don't think anyone really addressed your primary point. if your decision to go pinless is due to worries about drilling, i can only say that drilling a pinned bridge is easier than drilling a pinless version. [/QUOTE]

To be honest, it doesn't really matter if that point wasn't addressed. I have been kindly given all the information I need, thanks.

Sam,

Your bridge looks ok to me. As you probably know pinless bridges are quite common on ukuleles. Of course they use nylon strings that have no ends. In the example I have enclosed the end is pushed in the string hole and then a bead is tied on to create the ball end. With the steel guitar strings it could be more difficult to use the same system because the strings would need to be attatched through the sound hole from inside to the outside. Anyway, here is a photo of a pinless bridge on a Koa Concert ukulele made by Luthier Dave Means of Glyph Ukuleles. I have used this style pinless bridge and really like the clean look.



Enjoy!

Philip

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/\ It looks incredibly clean! I saw that in the archives.

That system would look stunning on a tenor guitar or acoustic bass, but as you said, not very feasable due to greater tensions.

I don't think using the ukulele style pinless bridge would have any problem with the tension of the steel strings. The pinned bridge has string ball ends against the bridge plate but put in through holes in the top and then pinned. The pinless style in the photo would have the non ball string end pulled through from inside to outside. The result is the ball ends against the bridge plate but without the pins to secure a hole. I like this look and if I build another guitar the bridge will be of this style. Without a doubt all my ukuleles will have this style. I certainly agree with you that it is a very clean look.

Regards,

Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

[QUOTE=Dave White]...making an angle of 80° from the horizontal. [/QUOTE]
Is that up, toward the saddle, or down, toward the soundboard? Looks like it's up, but some classical builders angle the holes down, so I thought I'd ask. Thanks.

and an angle of 80* from the horizontal would be almost vertical, would it not?

Michael, I think he just means it's a ten-degree slant. The terminology sure can get confusing.

[QUOTE=konacat] I don't think using the ukulele style pinless bridge would have any problem with the tension of the steel strings. The pinned bridge has string ball ends against the bridge plate but put in through holes in the top and then pinned. The pinless style in the photo would have the non ball string end pulled through from inside to outside. The result is the ball ends against the bridge plate but without the pins to secure a hole. I like this look and if I build another guitar the bridge will be of this style. [/QUOTE]

It certainly looks clean, but I wonder about the mechanics of threading strings 'out' from the inside via the soundhole. It could be a bit tricky finding the correct 1/16 hole until you had some practice. Also, replacing one broken string would necessitate getting slack on most of the strings - unless your hand/wrist is very small.
Another possibility is a 'keyhole' for the string.
I kinda like pins myself, so this is all theory for me.
Cheers
John

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] and an angle of 80* from the horizontal would be almost vertical, would it not?[/QUOTE]

Michael,

Correct as usual. If you look at the two joined pieces of mahogany in my jig they are "almost vertical" - in fact 80 degrees from the horizontal. Put the bridge in "bottom up" and drill with the drill press and you get an upward slope of the string holes 10 degrees from the plane of the instrument top.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I'd love to see a Breedlove Atlas bridge close up. There are some Atlases in England, but I'd have to drive 200 miles to see them!!

Here's a photo of one of mine (a one-off, not the design I'm using now; no photos of the new one yet) for your perusal.

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That's pretty slick, Todd! Could you tell us a bit about your process? Are the ball ends recessed (photo?)? Do you drill the string channels at an angle?

ToddStock, thankyou for posting those wonderful photographs of the Breedlove bridge.

Looking at the holes, it appears that you have a sharp angle where the "break" angle of the strings is, then perhaps a horzontal hole meeting the angled hole, where the string is initially fed through and where the ball end fits snug. Interesting design.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

Carlton and Todd, sorry I haven't responded. I'll try to make the time to take a few more photos of this bridge and another similar one I've done, and then see if I can answer your questions.

Todd, I'm not sure if I understand your question...

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