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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:31 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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This is it, and boy does it work, but there is a secret that you have to know or it won't. Tim published his a week or two ago. His was horizontal on a cart, this one is vertical to save space I don't have. So, have a look at this thing. I'm convinced of it's value and will soon add a large full size cyclone to my shop, or die. Speaking of dying, I don't want to, so that's why all the fuss. Loose the Dust, Breathe like a Man!   



This is the ShopVac bucket. Notice no debri, just a wee bit of fine dust. I mentioned a secret, you must have a gasketed seal on the Trash Can lid. I tested mine and was quite disappointed. Lots of debri filled this bucket. Enter the WalMart foam seal from the door and window seal section, bingo, it works now.



Here is a shot of the dust / dirt in the trash can. This setup is a winner. I made a call to my cyclone maker and he said it might work set up as I described as he looked at my emailed drawing. I just needed a more compact unit.



This is the lid of the trash can. See, that fine dust particles just cling together as they enter the can and stick to the lid or fall into the bottom of the can along it's perimeter. I'm a believer. Looking across the shop too after vacuuming or collecting at the bench top sander, it's clear as a bell. I'm still wearing my mask though when resawing or sanding. Thanks for looking!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:21 am 
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Bruce - INGENIOUS!  I just got my cyclone like yours and was wondering how to get it hooked up!  Thanks a bunch!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:25 am 
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I had a similar experience this weekend, with my Dust Deputy.  I cleaned it out, and was replacing the filter in my vacuum with a new one, so I checked inside my vacuum cannister.  It was still shiny no dust at all.  The filter only had the dust on it that it had on it before getting the Dust Deputy.  I replaced it with a HEPA Clean Stream Filter.  I was really surprised that no dust was getting to the vacuum.  Most of my dust has been sanding dust and band sawing dust.  The inside of my lid was like yours, thick coating of very fine dust.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:31 am 
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Koa
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Maybe I should re-think about my Delta bag/55 gal. drum setup. You mentioned your cyclone maker,who? Got a number? Clinton


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:35 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thanks Steve, necessity is the mother __ _________.....

I had no space.

I have a dust cough.

'Nuff said. Big Un's next...

Waddy, Everyone may think we're dust happy, we're not, we are just completely awed at what a cyclone can do. What good's a HEPA filter clogged with dust? By seperating out most all particles, large and small, we've in essence made a collector work.

Bill Pentz deserves credit for his work in the field. Which, by the way, only came after he began having medical problems while woodworking.

Knowledge is like a seatbelt, it only works if you use it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:42 am 
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What amazes me is how the finest dust settles out of the air stream.  I don't get it.  It seems like it would be too light to settle like it does, but it seems, for some reason, that it collects at the top of the dust bin.  "Why is that?" in the words of Andy Rooney.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:53 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
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Static charging The fine dust has less mass therfore can not over come the static charge efect causing it to cling to the nearest like charged surface


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:55 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Clinton, I left the name off so this wouldn't seem like an infomercial.

Ed Morgan is building a version of the Bill Pentz researched cyclone. You can actually go to Bill or Ed's site and get the plans to build your own.

I heard what Rick Turner said about equipment, only build what you cannot buy. The point being build guitars....

Here is a link to Ed's place: http://clearvuecyclones.com/

Bill's place is: http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

I want my shop to become a sterile environment such as Bill envisioned. After all, I'm gonna be a grandpa in March and I want to enjoy that!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:00 am 
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Koa
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"Why is that?"

Physics...

This is the same general method that wheat is cleaned, flour, water9often called stone traps, where sand and rocks are separated from the flowing waste water), even wet wood pulp is cleaned by running it through banks of cones(cyclones). Heavier items fall out of suspension, eventually being forced to the bottom by the other heavy particles. In this case, since the lightest particles are air, mostly clean air reaches the filter at the top, while the heavier dust settles at the botom(in the can).

The larger your system, the larger the can and cyclone must be(or you'll need a bank of many of them); that little one shown works because the Shopvac isn't moving so much air that much of the suspended particles can reach the filter.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:02 am 
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Koa
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@*^&$#! Where's that edit button!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:06 am 
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Koa
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Bruce, consider grounding the can, please. Too much static can cause a spark, and a spark in a fine dust, closed environment can result in an explosion.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:18 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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An explosion.

There goes my clean sterile environment!

Okay, I just passed my 8 Hours of Contuing Ed to keep my Master's Electrical License. I'll have to insult my Code Book and see what it says about grounding in a dust-filled environment.

I may just post over on the Electrical Forum for this one? Good point Mario, hadn't given it a thought, ....until now. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:19 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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That is pretty cool Bruce. I got mine in the mail yesterday.

Is that kinnd of top heavy though. Does it want to fall over?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:53 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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My son helped me make the base and test it. He's 15. To my amazement, I was wondering how difficult it would be to pull around. See the handles on either side of the trash can? They are great for pulling it about.

It is the tiniest top heavy, but search out the McKnight pics of the side by side version. This makes the footprint less that 24 by 24 inches, and no additional hose required. I store my hose in the trash can when done.

Talking to Ed this morning and sharing this pic with him, I told him my plans were to add three small wooden braces from the can lid lip to the sides of the ShopVac, just for added stability. Notice that I added a plywood disc inside the metal lid to strengthen it.

Removing the motor and filter head of the ShopVac, removes most of the weight for emptying the trash can.

Did anyone notice the wheels didn't get mounted to the ShopVac? Guess where they are? I'll add a detail photo sometime showing that little idea.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:01 am 
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Seems like Tim should be gettin a commision from Clearvue. I ordered one and should have it tomorrow. I'll set mine up vertical as well mounted on a two wheeled hand truck.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:06 am 
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Koa
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Bruce, I'm liking your contraption here and may make one to tote around for cleaning day...

I also wondered if it would be top heavy, but immediately realized I would add some ballast to the can if I build one. A $10 dollar bag of pre-mix concrete would do fine. Pour it in the can, add water, mix, and let it cure a few hours. Lotsa ballast(around 50lbs), never in the way....

Add a large garbage bag to the can as a liner, and you don't even have to pour out the dust when it's full; just tie it up and toss....

A lot of potential here between yours and Tim's..., your's being the most space efficient.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:50 am 
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Mahogany
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How much suction does that rig actually have?  could you replace a 1.5 hp dust collector and pull the larger chips out of, say, a jointer?  I can see it works well for the light dust, but what about the heavy stuff?  My "shop vac" is a Festool Ct22 - the biggest "chip" collection job in my shop is occasional use of the jointer...I just sold my 1.5 hp Delta bag unit (1200 cfm) and was waiting to buy a cyclone of some sort...will that rig do the job?


Mitch



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:27 am 
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Mitch - The cyclone shown is too small to use with a full size collction system.  Clearvue makes all sizes.  Their website linked above can help solve your dilema.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:29 am 
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Well, I just reread your post, Mitch, and it should work with the Festool.  Hesh would be proud of us all to see such clean shops!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:52 am 
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Koa
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Mitch,  disconnected the dust collection at my jointer a few years ago, and I should have done so sooner. Much sooner. I simply placed a small box at the chute and let it fill. Jointer chips are large and heavy enough that they don't go all airborne on us, and instead of needlessly filling up my dust collector bags, they fill the little box, which I spread on the lawn or across the road, to become mulch.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:38 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Mitch, I'm thinking this baby would run a jointer fine. I see Mario's comment that a box works for that? I've never seperated the machines mentally in my mind as to what creates the most dust. But this trash can is fairly large and would probably do a number of sessions at the jointer, no problem. I usually straighten billets with my jointer or run backs and tops and sides, so light usage.

John, I thought about a two wheeler, even was willing to dedicate one to the job. I think it'll work great. It will need some kind of holder of course with a bungee for removal. Regardless, it all needs to be disassembled to empty it and maintain it.

I think the guy who needs compensated is Bill Pentz. Never mind, he is being compensated, each time Ed sells a cyclone. Tim just did us all a great favor showing us this little sweetie. And for equal time, those who have the Dust Deputy made of metal, it works too, Waddy and Todd have it.

The purpose for this is minor dust entrapment with say a small bandsaw, table top belt sander, jointer, and floor and tool vacuuming, man it's great for that. What's impressive is the visual clarity in my shop air when finished with the tasks. It just works.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:50 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Notice, yep, there is a static charge. My son just came in from school. He says it static shocked him a bunch during vacuuming of the shop floor, but it was when he went to grab the metal can handle to pull it along. It wasn't discharging through the plastic hose, just the metal can handle.

So Mario, I guess the static discharging happens on the outside of the can instead of in the dusty environment. Still that has to be annoying. It may be a simple thing to ground the can back to the electrical supply for the unit. I'll have to think on this a bit.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:37 am 
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Hi guys,


This is Ed Morgano with Clear Vue Cyclones.  I just wanted to drop in and thank all of our supporters on this forum.  I saw Tim's post a couple of weeks ago and I'm glad to see that our little Mini CV06 is doing it's job. I wanted to respond to a couple of things on this thread.  First: from WaddyT What amazes me is how the finest dust settles out of the air stream.  I don't get it.  It seems like it would be too light to settle like it does, but it seems, for some reason, that it collects at the top of the dust bin.  "Why is that?" in the words of Andy Rooney.
A cyclone works by spinning the air into a smaller and smaller circle as the air travels down the cone.  This creates an ever increasing centrifugal force which separates out even the fine particles from the air stream.  Static will cause these fine particles to collect on the lid and sides of the dust bin.


Static.  I personally would ground a metal trash can to keep from getting shocks from it, but I don't think the chance of explosion is any greater than it would be in a shop vac where the dust is continiously being spun around inside the canister.  The dust rubbing on the sides of the pipe is what creates the static buildup.  A metal can conducts that charge so if you touch it you will get a shock. 


Thanks again,


Ed Morgano



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:41 am 
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Ed - Welcome to the OLF! 

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:56 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hey Ed Welcome.

I'm dreaming up a little L-shaped box for the edge of my Laguna 18 inch Bandsaw with a dustport. When resawing, and especially the last cut when the blade exits the billet as you slice the last piece, it showers the top and floor with all kinds of small sawdust.

With a hose hooked to this cyclone setup, the L shape would catch sawdust along the two edges that matter, behind and to the right of the cut.

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