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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:13 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:43 pm
Posts: 19
Location: United States
Hello all,

I'm considering copying Martin's Norman Blake 00028 model for a first
guitar. Yes, probably setting myself up to lose some hair, but maybe I'll
come to my senses -- if I can remember where I left them.

Anywho -- the uniques features of this model are a 12 fret to body neck
on a 00014 fret body. This moves the bridge lower on the lower bout.
Sound hole is 00 size, and is positioned approx. on center with apex of
waist. Soooo, the things that are happening on the surface of the
instrument aren't too hard to get measurements on; the trick is the top
bracing. According to Martin's description, the pattern is unique to this
model.

Does anyone have any specific info on this model's bracing?

Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:14 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:55 pm
Posts: 698
Location: Australia
I think the main difference with the NB bracing is that it is forward shifted as in the pic below. Note the bridge just kisses the X brace. If you are determined do this bracing pattern make sure you get hold of some STIFF spruce.

(I got this from the UMGF forum and don't know whether it's copyrighted or public domain so feel free to delete this Lance if it contravenes the Geneva Convention)

There is quite a library at the UMGF of Martin bracing patterns but impossible to link to the page where it lives thus I posted this here. It's well worth a look though.

The NB also has a 19 fret fingerboard.

Bob


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:33 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:43 pm
Posts: 19
Location: United States
Thanks very much!

Thanks, too, for the heads up on the 19 fret FB. This must allow a little
less downward shift in the soundhole placement.

I had read that the braces were shifted forward, and thought that was
intereesting given that the bridge is already lower on the lower bout. I
don't know the standard angle at the x for Martin 000/0M, but this one
looks darn close to 90 degrees -- which looks to be critical (in this
arrangement) to getting some bridge postion overlap with the braces.
Martin also used the 00 soundhole size (2-7/8" ?). I wonder if this
decision was driven by the x brace design/bridge placement, or other
reason?

Thanks again -- super helpful.

C


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:07 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: United States
    I can tell you that I have the actual bracing patten for this model. As far as the top bracing and sound hale are concerned it is nothing like the 000 or 0M. It is in a sense its own design totally.
     I can tell you that the bracing is scale oriented and 24.9 .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:24 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:43 pm
Posts: 19
Location: United States
Are you able to share the bracing pattern?

Thanks,
Chris


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:26 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
Sounds like he's saying he can tell you that he can't tell you, but he'd like for you to know he can't, though he does.

Or sumthin' like dat; it's been a long time since the second grade and secret-secret games.



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:00 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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I didn't take what John shared to at all indicate that he could not provide a bracing pattern.  In fact John has been perhaps the best source of Martin bracing patterns and body tracings available any where.......

No need to see anything diabolical here - wait for John to respond please............


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:50 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
I wasn't aware he sold plans. He could have just said so outright. He's a sponsor, after all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:41 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
.I think John is reluctant to advertise them, as they are not enough
for neophytes to work from, and take some judgement to use even on the
part of more experienced builders. Also probably a pain in the butt for
him to drop his production line stuff and do a one-off tracing for less
than the cost of paper, packaging, and postage.


I understand, but, why even write that post, then? That's the part I don't "get".



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:46 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Is that red spruce in the pic.  Seems to have wide grain, unlike Sitka.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:21 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:55 pm
Posts: 698
Location: Australia
Specs for the NB 000-28 are here.

NB 000-28 specs on the Martin site

Bob

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Bob Connor
Geelong, Australia


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:17 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:04 am
Posts: 17
Location: Narberth, PA USA

Grumpy, et al.,


John Hall is way more than generous with his knowledge.  Whenever I've called to order something, I've come away from the conversation with way more information than implied by his posting above.


Case in point:  I called Blues Creek (John) to see if he had any necks for a Martin Style 5 terz guitar.  He did.  He asked whether I had a template for cutting frets.  I replied, "no," and added that I had been working on one for a while with lots of mistakes.  He told me that I could use a standard Martin template (which I do have) by simply dropping down two frets.


John also spent about 20 minutes on the phone with me talking about cutting inlays. 


So.  Every now and then...just every now and then (apologies to Tom Waits), someone will surprise you with their generosity.  Thanks, John!



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:34 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I prob'ly should be embarassed to admit this, but I never heard of a "soundhole centroid" and it looks here as if it is something everyone knows about. I musta not been paying attention. Sounds as if it's something like a center, but not exactly a center, and has something to do with the soundhole. How'm I doing?

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When all else fails, clean the shop.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:06 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: United States
Grumpy You love to read stir up stuff being a grump isn't something to be proud of. If anyone needs a tracing I will get you one. $10 covers my time paper and shipping.
john hall
blues creek guitar


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:29 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
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City: Tecumseh and Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Howard buddy I had centroids once.... probably from sitting at the computer reading the OLF to long but saw a doctor and he gave me a tube of stuff and all was well.

It's this ....dreaded kerfing in my cerebral cortex that they can't do anything about......


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:36 am 
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Contributing Member
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9174
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I call that "Operator Head Space"! 

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:36 am 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:45 pm
Posts: 206
Location: United States

John,


I love mario's posts, didn't know how to take him at first. He could have called himself Doc, sure ain't Bashful, Dopey doesn't cut it, Sleepy & Sneezy probably only when he has a cold and Happy...... only when he's stirring the pot. Yeah Grumpy works  


Peter


 



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:32 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: United States
    Glad to hear that you like Mario , I personally nerver met the man or said anything bad about him, we all have a way of communicating. I don't think personal attacks are very professional. I will no longer post of this subject. I treat everyone with respect until I am personally accused of something I didn't do.
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:33 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
It's wet out, maybe I'll change over to Sneezy...

John, all you had to do was say so; your first message was all criptic. Read it back to yourself, and you'll see. It was all "I know how, and I'm not telling".

I wasn't stirring the pot, just trying t make sense of why you'd post that you knew, yet weren't going to reveal. If there's something I don't wish to reveal or can't be bothered with, I don't post at all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:49 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Sheesh, Todd. Of course a soundhole (if it is circular) has a center. You just can't glue anything to it. But if a soundhole has a centroid, is it in the same place as the center?

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http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:56 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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But that does esplain what happens when you drive too fast in rainy weather. It's that hyperplaning that makes the car start to rotate around its centroid.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:31 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
I just finally read the Martin specs and voila! All is revealed!   The answer is...."Unique Top Bracing Pattern"!

A couple of things...the small sound hole is going to drop the Helmholz, and forward shifting the braces like that and having so little bridge directly over braces is going to make this a boomer.   It looks to me as though Norman wants to get the rumble of his old 12 fret long dread bodied guitars out of a smaller instrument that's more comfortable to play.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:42 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
Blake has always sought a lot of bottom end from his guitars. he mixes up his own string sets, and in an interview from something like 20 years ago, he was running a .062" on the bottom. Today, he runs a .058 or so, despite lights up top. It's part of his sound...., s I would't be a bit surprised to hear that his sig. Martin would be voiced for a deep bottom end.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:23 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
I've had a couple of guitars come across my bench that smelled as though someone had voided in them...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:37 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
I've told this story many times, but it fits the theme:

fellow brings me a guitar, says there's a bad buzz that just happened. Okay, says , take it out... So he opens the case and hands me the guitar. I look it over, and the top is sunk right where the X brace ends, so I tap there, and can clearly hear the buzz of a popped loose brace. Not a problem, right?

I look in the soundhole, and see  what look to be pieces of carrots, peas, and who knows what else, caked in there. "What the f&*$ is that s*@%?!?" says I, moments before I was to stick my hand in there. "Oh, huh-huh-huh, I puked in it last weekend at a party, man" says the owner. "Happy trails" says I, handing back the POS to the idiot....




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