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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:10 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:52 am
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Location: United States

A recent post talked about saving premium wood for a later build, under the assumption that you'd "get it" later and build a better guitar. I am of the mind that if you're a decent woodworker and anal about your work, you can build a great looking guitar with excellent playability on your first build. Whether the tone improves with each build may be debatable, and I'll counter with this - The more guitars you build, the more discriminating your ears become and the less happy you'll be that you've reached the tone you're after .

I am not interested in hints of new mown hay and melon with a subtle oakiness... I just want to get a buzz each time I pick it up. (yeah, I am pretty unsophisticated and still get chastised for using the wrong fork)

By that thinking, I might as will build with my premium wood early on and keep it a $1000.00 guitar and not make it a $10,000 guitar ('cept in my mind).

Seriously though, I am curious if you have ever gone back to your early guitars and were surprised that they sounded as good or better than your current work. I guess the question is, of all the guitars you have built, which number is your personal favorite tonally?

And to make this REALLY interesting, which build is your dawg?



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:32 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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Location: United States
The answer to you question is Yes and No.

My first scratch build was an IRW back and side/ Curly Koa topped OM. Man did I ever have a time building that puppy but to this day it is one of my best sounding (personal) guitars. That said it has some tonal flaws that I know how to overcome now mostly to do with a bit too tight of a top.

But generally speaking, I got lucky, and hopping to be lucky is a fools bet. Knowing why is one thing and can be learned solely intellectually. Knowing how to pull it all together requires both experience and knowledge.

Even after we have many guitar behind us, sometimes a dog jumps up and bites us. But the more we build the fewer doges appear providing we work toward really learning to be a better craftsman.

So If you plan to build for a while and have a stash of High end wood set aside for your dream guitar. I would hold on to it. The truth is you will do the high end wood more justice to save it for a time when you really have a better understanding of how to take advantage of its attributes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:43 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Rob,

I will add another spin. I am still on #1 but have started #2 as well. I am about to bind #1 and the neck is all together. Because of my business I have the good fortune to have open discussions about build ideas with some of the $10-20,000 guitar guys. I finished the "boat" of #1 over two years ago and I have been woodworking for 30 years now and am quite good at that end of things. On my recent post on deflection testing that was an opportunity for me to further "muse" on building better (or consistently anyway). In my many discussions I have found that there is not any part of the build process that will not effect the end product. Al Carruth has said it many times, your chances of getting it 95% right the first time are pretty good, but it is that last 5% and more specifically that last 1% that is elusive and only comes for the "doing".

I too feel that my #1 will be quite good, that was until yesterday!! My 7 year old son has been playing violin for just over a year now and we have just started to play some fiddle tunes together. I have been doing the singing and started to get him to sing as well. Yesterday he had music class in school. I asked him how it went, he said that they had to sing and it was embarrassing so he doesn't want to do it anymore. So we talked about the other things he does, TaeKwon Do, Soccer, Skiing, and discussed where he was at with each of these and how he got there, then we talked about our friends who are local musicians and singer/song writers and even visited one of them. The whole theme was that the only way you get comfortable and confident in doing ANY task is in the "DOING". So that made me re-evaluate my guitar making thoughts.....The only way I will get good at this will be in the "DOING". I have the woodworking chops but I need to build the guitarmaking chops! I have been humbled into that recently as I have broken two sides of very curly mahogany on the simple sides of this guitar using heating blankets and super soft when on #1 I bent my aussie blackwood sides into a tight venetian cutaway without a hitch....I am regressing!!!

Anyway, just some thoughts from a guy who was in the same place as you. I told my son it will take practice and I need to heed that message as well. My 2 BRW sets will be sitting for some time! My son and I will also continue practice singing and playing them fiddle tunes!

Shane

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:50 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
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Rob my friend I think that you should do what ever you wish to do.

I can tell you though that I was glad that I waited to use BRW because I now have the best guitar that I have ever owned AND I have no regrets either.

So my best sounding/playing guitar is #14 that I just completed a couple of months ago. 

Something happens along the way with guitar building regardless of my resistance to it - we learn things.  So when I evaluated my early guitars right after I built them I was thrilled.  Today I am looking forward to having my nephew Bubba run over them with his Miller Genuine Draft truck...... (stay tuned.....).

What I am really saying here is not only will a builder learn a great deal and get better with experience your standards will become more realistic too, which in my case meant higher, and your ability to evaluate what you have done, honestly, improves too.

I have a couple of early guitars that I built with higher end wood that I am actually sorry today that I wasted the wood on.

Also - along the way I seem to have developed a reverence, for lack of a better word, for the wood and I kind of feel a duty now to use it as wisely and respectfully as possible.  This to me means being able to consistently build a good guitar before pulling out the good stuff and having the honor of using it.

I didn't always feel this way and have built with what I wanted to because "I could" and took flak for it too.  But looking back those who told me that "because I could" was not a good reason were correct and I was wrong.

But again - this is me, everyone should do what they wish but I will add this:  Regardless of what woods one uses to build a guitar - a poorly built guitar with poor playability is still a dog and a well built guitar with great playability is a wonderful guitar.....

Here is my dawg:





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:57 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Patience...throttle down the testosterone! Take a cold shower! There's so much to learn before you can do a guitar justice. And if you have to ask, then you're not ready... so why subject yourself to the slings and arrows you're about to experience.

Not only should tone be your goal on the early builds, but perhaps more importantly, playability, action and consistency.

In my experience, my first one really still sounds good but the later ones are much better in both tone and playability. I'm glad I used the less expensive wood early on...there's no way premium wood could have made them sound or play any better.

Take your time and learn from each build. Make lots of minute observations and take lots of notes. Develop an honest and very critical eye and never settle for anything but your best. Expect mistakes but learn from them as well as learn to correct them. Also learn to walk away from your work wnen you're too tired or frustrated. This is supposed to be fun and rewarding.

My comments are meant to offer a dose of reality and encourage you to be succussful. I hope that helps! Good luck...and post often with any questions.

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Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:23 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I now have 20 guitars behind me, and I still pick up the first guitar and play it occasionally. There is absolutely no doubt that guitar #20 out preforms #1 in every way possible. This is mainly because I learn over time how to "tweak" the sound and learn what works and what doesnt.


You will be glad you waited to use the premium woods until you have quite a number of guitars behind you. There are things that only experience can teach you about building guitars that will never be spoken about or written about on this forum or any other forum or place. In time, you will learn how to get that last 5% of quality sound that makes it worth the wait to use that high quality wood.


I had the same thinking that you do and used expensive woods on some of my first few guitars. Some of those guitars I broke up into pieces and used them for kindling because I was so ashamed of how they turned out. Under no circumstances would I ever want anybody to see them. It was a shameful waste of rare woods. I wish I had waited.


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Ken H


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:45 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional

[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

I now have 20 guitars behind me

[/QUOTE]

Isn't that uncomfortable Ken buddy?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:37 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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One other note. No one here is saying don't use "good" wood". You can get good EIR or Mahogany for less than $100/set. You can build world class sounding guitars from these woods, you just won't have the "bling" effect. And that resonably priced EIR and Mahogany will be easier to work than that high figured expensive stuff that does nothing for the sound and playability of the guitar and only adds to making the guitar "studio show quality" not necessarily rockin' on stage or the recording studio quality. Find the sound then refine the asthetics.

Shane

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:12 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:52 am
Posts: 61
Location: United States

Thanks for all the replies thus far!

At some time there must be a point of diminishing return though. I am not going to do this because i want to sell guitars, i just want to have something that's decent and looks pretty that i have built with my own two hands and 7 remaining fingers (woodworking joke!).

I have wayyyy too many hobbies to spend the time and money chasing that elusive perfect tone, so at some point i am going to have to take a risk and say, I'm ready. Will that be after 1, 3 or 14? There's no way I can afford a $5000 guitar and since timewise it has taken me 6 months to get to the point at which I am with my first build (Which isn't far along at all!) I figure my first will take me 2 years to finish. To get through 14 before I am ready to build THE guitar well, maybe my son will enjoy his inheritance - assuming it's finished.

I don't have any misconceptions about the process, nor that pretty wood will make a difference in the tone. I don't have any preconcieved notions that when I do build the guitar there will be a long line outside my door of people who just want to play it once for the experience. I certanly hope it won't sound worse than building from a kit. If it ends up that way, I run a wire through the trussrod, put a lightbulb and a lampshade on the headstock and I have an interesting conversation piece.

So I am just trying to get a feeling of when in the learning process I might get to the point that I should expect to be confident enough to know that I wouldn't install the neck backwards.
At the moment, I'm guessing #4 wouldn’t be too early to start itching to use the stash (Which is only 1 top and 1 backside set), but I can be patient. Being tonedeaf, I'm not sure how much it'll matter anyway.

By the way, here's the twinkle in my eye.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:22 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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Location: United States
Gorgeous Ziricote

Ok I must be honest with you here That wood is probably one of the hardest wood to try to work with for a first timer. It will split along the figure lines with little or no persuasion.

I am not going to try to talk you out of using it. if your mind is made up to charge a head and this will be a one time build your going to do it.

I would try to seek out a luthier in your area to ask for help form till you have the box closed. Most of us would be glad to help you get through the difficult parts if asked.

Also if you do have a with the grain split happen, don't panic there are ways to deal with it that will never show.

I am guessing you gave in the $250-$300 range for that set. to me it would be worth building at least one simple Mahogany/Spruce guitar first. that way you would at least have an idea of where handling issues will arise.

Do you have a bender set up or plan to use a pipe or bending iron? If you have set-up a bender you might consider saturating the sides with thin CA and allowing to cure then sand the sides back to wood prior to bending. The CA will help to prevent splitting along the figure lines with the grain, the most problematic issue with Ziricote.

Really Try to find an experienced luthier in your area and take advantage of his help. This really is not a forgiving wood to work with at all.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:08 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
My only guitar right now is #1. My first. A EIR/Eng. dread. I mostly play mandolin, my favorite being #18...

That first guitar doesn't sound or play good. It sounds and plays grrrreaT! I built a career from it. But it's too rough t take outside the home now. If i were playing someplace and a stranger looked over and read the headstock or recognized me, then looked at the guitar, he/she would leave thinking to themselves "if that's what he builds, he's not worth crap! Sounds great, but looks awful..."

Now, I did have lots of repair experience under my belt, and that explains why it plays as well as anything. The sound was just me. Call it a fluke, Divine Intervention, whatever. <g>  So, don't think you can't make a good playing and sounding guitar early on, it can be done. But very few can do it without a dozen tiny oopsies here and there that will add up to make the whole look crude. And the better you get, the fewer oopsies you make, the bigger the remaining oopsies appear. It's a frustrating climb, and you never reach the top.....

 Go ahead and use really good wood if you can afford it, but not ultra rare and irreplacable wood. Plus, the more common woods are more predictable. If you begin with ultra swimmy and rare woods, how will you know what your tone compares to?

K.I.S.S.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:21 am 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:40 am
Posts: 1888
Location: Spokane, Washington
[QUOTE=grumpy] <snip>.....It's a frustrating climb, and you never reach the top..... [/QUOTE]

I think the problem with the top is that it keeps moving......higher.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:41 am 
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Contributing Member
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Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:20 am
Posts: 2529
Location: Powell River BC Canada
First name: Danny
Last Name: Vincent
This is easy. My first guitar is by far my favourite. All right, I've only
built one but it looks pretty good and sounds great. It's a nylon string,
something I have wanted in the quiver for many years. I was in a music
store a while back and played some really pricey classicals an I'm right in
there with tone and playability. Most likely has something to do with the
fact that I thinned the top a little too much and he braces are starting to
telegraph through. I have a few pretty nice guitars kicking around but
since building this one they collect a lot of dust. If you're a finger picker
you might want to think about building yourself a nylon string.

I feel that if you have some tool time under your belt and are prepared
to make use of resources, like here don't be afraid to use some decent
wood. My biggest consideration in wood selection would be ease of bend-ability. You'll be able to find out all you want on that from the pros
here cause they are sure a great, helpful bunch. If you really want to use
wood that might be more difficult to use, do it. I've always been of mind
that if someone else can do it so can I. Needless to say that attitude has
been the cause of a couple of moments of frustration.

Happy Building,
Danny


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:52 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:59 pm
Posts: 241

I'm always hopeful that my next guitar will be the best. There are some which I remember better than others for various reasons, but overall my experience is that when you revisit these things after a long period of time you can be shocked at what you obviously once considered as being "good" work. Sometimes one is pleasantly surprised with looking at something you did 25 or 30 years ago, but for me, it is the current or next guitar that will be on top. Right now its #90 but I'm hoping to exceed it with #91.    



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:49 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:52 am
Posts: 61
Location: United States
Michael -

"Gorgeous Ziricote" & "That wood is probably one of the hardest wood to try to work with for a first timer."
Thanks for the warning and i am well aware of that. i do want to say that i have been picking all of your brains silently here for a couple of years and if you can no longer remember where you left your carkeys well, perhaps i took a little too much. To be honest, i really wanted something of a challenge and i admit that this piece scares the heck out of me! I watched the various sites for quite a while and finally got this from on ebay for $33.95 (no reserve!) - Kidding! I think it ran me about 250, you're spot on.

"I would try to seek out a luthier in your area to ask for help form till you have the box closed. Most of us would be glad to help you get through the difficult parts if asked."
I am lucky that i live in an area where i can think of at least 5 masters within an hour or two and someone i work with just finished the 2 week course with Cumpiano. I plan to hang out here like your pain-in-the-butt little brother when i actually start working on the ziricote.

"To me it would be worth building at least one simple Mahogany/Spruce guitar first."
I am building a trash guitar first (and probably a couple of those) Home depot popular/maple/cedar just to make sure i understand at least all the basics, then i take a step up into mahogany, then...?

"Do you have a bender set up or plan to use a pipe or bending iron?"
This is where i might call on some of the locals... depending on how comforatble i feel i would pay to use someone's side bender. I'm really hoping to avoid that as i am doing everything by hand that i can, but if i must, i will. Right now i have a bunch of pipe i will experiment with.

"Really Try to find an experienced luthier in your area and take advantage of his help. This really is not a forgiving wood to work with at all."
*grin* That must be really important as you've said it twice! Well noted and thanks for the thoughts.

Rob


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:03 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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Location: United States
Rob you luck devil! I have twice meet Sir William (said in jest). I really wanted to do a semester course with him but being a full time engineer and living way out here in West Texas made it a bit to hard to attend. I feel a lot better knowing you went through one of his classes. Your chance of success are far greater than one would have assume at first read of your post. With the instruction you have behind you I will give you the thumbs up as say go for it. Just be aware that Ziricote has the nick name Mexican Crackwood for a good reason


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:17 am 
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Koa
Koa
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If you've got some woodworking experience, I'd say go for the Ziricote.
Side-bending can be a bit tricky the first time but you could always use
laminate sides as a good way to lessen the chances of a break.

In regards to your question about improving over time. I think everyone
who builds somewhat lightly will end up with a very good sounding
guitar. From what I gather, most first guitars sound better than most of
the guitars coming from Taylor and Martin - mine did.

That said, if you are managing to improve as you go along. You either
got REALLY lucky or you don't understand how to improve. It is incredibly
easy to get a very big sound with huge bass - But can you get good note
separation, good balance, good volume, good sustain, good tone, good
attack, etc.... Refining your sound is the hard part and what separates
great guitars from good guitars. And if you don't think you have room
for improvement then you just haven't opened your eyes (ears) to what's
out there.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:53 am 
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Koa
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Location: United States
The above should read " if you aren't managing to improve as you go along"


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:58 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:44 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Canada
rob,
for me, #3 and #5 were both somewhat disappointing. i play #1 all the time but like mario, am somewhat embarrassed by the appearance. i finished #7 this past fall and it was the first time that i sat on the couch playing, and could hardly believe i built a guitar that sounded that full and round and balanced, and felt so intimate (for lack of a better word) to play.
#7 was made of cedar and sapele - in both cases you can get those woods for next to nothing.
my advice is to follow your heart - if you can afford another set of sides should these ones break in the bending.
and even if you are going to go ahead with that amazing ziricote, still buy a set of sapele, and learn to bend sides with that. it's still somewhat tricky and so good practice for the ziricote. but at $40 a pop it's a cheaper way to learn.
just my thoughts.
phil


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:11 pm 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

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Location: United States
Michael - sorry but you misread... i only WORK with someone who took the course, and that's just one step above having an ex-girlfriend who had a sister that knew somebody who heard of someone that took the course...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:25 pm 
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Cocobolo
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[QUOTE=RobLak]



By the way, here's the twinkle in my eye.

[/QUOTE]



Now that is a set of Ziricote!  Where in the world did you pick up a set like that?


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1410 N. Broadway
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:37 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:41 am
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Location: Canada

Funny to see that ziricote pop up now. I talked myself out of this set yesterday as I thought my first attempt at bending sides might not end well with it. I love myrtle and was glad to hear it bends nicely.


Warren.




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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Country: Romania
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Hmm, the pic of 274 on hibdonhardwood.com is way worse than this 

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:54 pm 
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Koa
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Location: Wauwatosa, WI, USA
I believe that is from the same board as the Zircote that was in the OLF
woodshed. OLF23 I believe from Hibdon. I always wanted to get it, but
kept putting it off. Then it was gone.

I picked up an OM set from Steve a while ago and planned on using it for
#3, but will put that down the list after thinking about it. The Mexican
Crackwood thing helped change my mind. I wanted to have a wow guitar
for my first, but came to my sences and got fome less expensive wood
during the swap meet to do my first four. The first for me will be Black
Limba and curly sitka. Those are actually the least expensive sets I have,
but under $100 combined. I'll add wenge binding and a Bacote rosette
and wedge to try to get up to my 15 pieces of flare.

I'd suggest getting a bunch of scrap sides and practice bending. I did
about 12 pieces with scrap before I bent the sides for my practice box.
$25 walnut from LMII. I also am doing a handful of $12 tops to practice
rosettes and tuning. That way I get aleady have a good "Well, dont do
that again" list going when I do one for real.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:32 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
If I've made any mistakes in building acoustics, it would be by being a bit to cautious in thinning tops and shaving bracing, but I'd rather err on that side than by trying to make a guitar sound too open, too soon.   I've found that my older, heavier ones do improve like a good wine over a period of several years, and I'm not disappointed by the tone of any of them.   Chops-wise, it's all in how much time I give myself to build. Faster is a bit rougher, and sometimes that's just fine.


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