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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 7:47 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:24 am
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Location: United States
Hey Everyone,

Looks like Breedlove was on its last leg until outsourcing saved them. Good? Bad? Or just the way it is I guess.

Jeff

Breedlove article


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:34 am 
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Koa
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"Breedlove's headquarters is now packed and humming with 20 men and women crafting custom guitars and mandolins that sell for as much as $57,000 each"

What??? $57,000 guitar, this is one of the problems I see in music making these days - people on the way up cant afford decent instruments till they "get there".
Never mind the average player.
I hope when I custom build I can offer an excellent instrument, at a good price, while still making a good living, but not trying to get crazy rich.
I saw an archtop in the music store the other day - it was fashioned staight out of Benedettos book. It was very nice looking, highly figured, but soul-less and bland sounding, acoustically unresonant, and $9,000.00
Phewie on You-ey if you think I would consider buying that guitar for 5,000.00
Just cause omsone builds a guitar from steps laid out by a master builder - does not a master builder make.
I better get cracking now I have a shop to build.
PS: someone mark my words - I may have to eat them later.
Cheers
Charliewood
Cheers
Charliewood


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 10:13 pm 
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Contributing Member
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I picked up a solid mahogany and sitka Tacoma not long ago...$600 and I swear it sounded exactly, i mean exactly like the Martin D18 they had there when played side by side. Of course, it was a very plain looking guitar. Not saying Tacoma is the greatest line out there because I have heard some awful ones but with a little patience and some time to look, you can find a very nice guitar on the affordable side.



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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:38 pm 
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Koa
Koa

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Location: United States
     I can tell you that if you want to make a living you do need to charge a fair price. It ins't a good idea to think you can do this cheap. my experience is that when you are in business it take alot more money to make money than you may think.
Here are some things that you get nailed for when in business you as a hobbiest may not think of
Insurance Yes you may be on your wives ins from her job or a retirement but you need liabilty and business insurance. Also if you have high end guitars you need bonded , so many things I never though of
Heating Oil , when you are self employeed the oil companies nail you an extra 1 to 2%. Then we look as cash flow and if you use a Ccard or line of credit.
Then we have self emplyment tax , Social security and lets not forget unemployment taxes ( even though as a self employer you can't collect)
I think you can see where this goes. Also you have employees you have to have workers comp and then inventory rentors insurance.
It is really disgusting at all the hidden charges we have. One last thing , the IRS sure will take a bite out of you.
SO that $1000 you made on that last guitar may be shipped to $500 if you are lucky.
   It is hard to know when to go from hobby business to full time.
Good luck , just wanted to give you a little brain food
John


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:52 pm 
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I've always felt that a product is worth whatever it will sell for. If Breedlove is getting 57000.00 a crack, then there worth every penny of it! If they weren't, no body would buy it right?

As for guitars being priced too high, I was in Herb David's guitar studio in Ann Arbor last year and played a Martin small bodied all Mahogany 12 fret slot head, I cant recall the model, It was by far one of the best sounding guitars I have ever heard. It was 600.00 New. Maybe it was a diamond in the rough? Regardless, there are nice guitars under a grand to be had for sure!

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:11 am 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:59 am
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i think historically that instruments have enjoyed high prices, if you compared the price of a high end lute/vihuela 2/300 years ago to top end martin/taylor/breedlove/whatever i think they would be fairly similar, an expensive guitar is as much of a status symbol as a decent tourbillon watch which you are looking at $80k+



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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:17 am 
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Interesting,
Hesh, I had the opportunity to spend an hour or so of (almost) quiet time up at Elderlys once and
spent a good amount of it noodling away on a pair of Breedloves. One had flamed Myrtle B&S and a
cedar top. That guitar spoke to me tonally, maybe im easy to please, or maybe my eyes were hearing more than my ears ? I don't know, but it sure sounded pretty at the time.
The workmenship was off the charts perfect, and the appointment selection was spot on, as a matter of fact, later that week I ordered up a set of myrtle and blood wood bindings so I could copy that wood combo in one of my models.

I lik'em but then again, it was just a small sampling of what they offer.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:18 am 
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Koa
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I wasnt saying that there arent a slew of adequate sounding guitars available cheaply on the market for under a grand - your right - more than ever b4. Agreed.
Would you really call them good sounding though?
    I have never played a good sounding guitar until I bought my Morgan handmade guitar that I am playing now - even though, at every stage of my playing career, I of course thought I was playing a nice sounding instrument!
I cant imagine what would make a guitar worth 57,000 dollars, but it really puts nice top flight instruments in the hands of collectors more than players if you ask me - because at some stage it becomes more of an investment, than an instrument designed to be played regularily.
Cheers
Charliewood
While I wouldnt ever mention a brand name, the 9,000 archtop I was talking about was definitely one of theose 1A 10K duds someone was talking about on the OLF a while back.charliewood38842.473287037


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:42 am 
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I would really say that 600.00 Martin was one of the best sounding guitars ive ever heard, it had MOJO!


Again, what makes something worth the price?, If someone is willing to pay the price to have it.

Why is a prewar Martin D28 worth so much?

Cuz someone will pay it, period!
LanceK38842.488587963

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:45 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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That is an interesting article. I have to say, though, that either the $57K price is a typo, and they meant $5,700, or Breedlove made a one-off at the high price and the figure tickled the reporter's sense of hyperbole. In either case, I doubt that Breedlove is selling the bulk of their domestic-built product for more than is, say, Martin.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:19 am 
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Cocobolo
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After building one guitar, I have at least a notion of what goes into creating a custom built instrument. However, I can't even imagine what would make a single guitar worth $57k to someone. It would have to be made of the rarest wood on the planet and must be inlayed with platinum and diamonds.

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:41 am 
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Mahogany
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:11 am
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Location: United States
I've only been playing a few years, but I got bit by the acoustic bug pretty
good. When I was ready to step up to a good solid wood guitar, i got an
all mahogany Larrivee OM-03 for a little over $600. That guitar taught me
what a guitar should sound like, and here I am about a year later.

I don't plan on ever getting rid of that guitar, and it will be the benchmark
for my upcoming builds that I'm just starting. I've day dreamed about
becoming a full time builder, but the harsh reality that John pointed out is
too intimidating to really pursue. But like Hesh said, I'll take comfort in
the sentimental attachment I'll have with anything that will make a sound.

I guess I'm one of the foolish ones that thinks building will save me
money in the long run, so I won't be tempted to spend $57,000 on a
guitar   


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:00 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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My experience with playing individual guitars in stores has been so hit or miss and counter intuitive. The deadest mid -to high end guitar I have ever picked up? Toss up between a Myrtle Breedlove, or a Martin OM-28v.
Both horrible dissappointments. On the other extreme, and coming from a convinced, gosh-those-taylors-are thin-and-fragile sounding kind of guy ... the nicest store guitar I've ever had in my hands was a Taylor W12 - walnut with cedar top. Fantastic. Go figure.

Now, the Taylor was in a store that knows what it's doing (Dusty Strings). The Martin was in a GC. The Breedlove was in a local store that I would not give any status higher than GC. Do we only find good guitars in places that know how to take care of them? Are the dead ones we find in dumps actually good guitars that are fixable? I was so dissappointed in that 28v - I was at a point where I possibly would have bought it if it had responded.

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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 3:09 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Hesh1956]I work with a guy who knows the head of the repair shop at Elderly Instrument. Elderly is one of the finest guitar stores in the world and well known to guitar fans globally.

The topic was how much does the shop have to do to a new, out-of-the-box guitar upon arrival.[/QUOTE]
I've been spoiled by Elderly, too, Hesh. The repair shop looks at every guitar they put on the showroom floor. They even take the time to set up their cheaper instruments!


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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:58 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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   I played a Carvin Cobalt 900 and was very surprised how well it played and sounded. Korean copy of a Taylor, I'm very sure, and only $800.00 filthy American dollars.

   I would always buy American or Eurpie, maybe Canadian(Geesh, a puck just went by my head), just to support the standard of living.

    Sound is pretty subjective, I don't particularly like Martins even the $8000.00 Clapton guitar, I think it's a blonde/brunette/redhead type discussion!

Yea! Taylor and a Redhead!


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 1:40 pm 
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Mahogany
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[QUOTE=ToddStock] I think much of the market for expensive CS
Martins, Fenders, Breedloves, etc. is to feed the fantasy that someone
cares - really cares - about how that guitar got built. Maybe I'm just not
feeling it, but I get absolutely no vibe off a Taylor, and only a little from
some of the new Martins. Obviously I'm not alone, or Bob Taylor would
not be lauching a 'hand-built' line to try to grab guys like me.

[/QUOTE]

I think you summed it up pretty well for myself also. I'm not about to
bicker with owners of factoy high end guitars, but I haven't been inspired
by a Martin or Taylor from the ones I've played in my limited experience.
Obviously, they have experience, and the name sells, but I'll save my
nickels and dimes for the underdog.

I just wish there were more performers out there representing the
handbuilt market. But I guess its an easier decision for most when Martin
or Taylor will supply an essentially unlimited number of guitars on the
road...

Don't quote me on this, but I rememeber hearing somewhere that Leo
Kottke brings his Taylor signatures with him on the road, but when he's
as home, he grabs his Olson...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 4:21 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:11 am
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Location: Tampa Bay
First name: Dave
Last Name: Anderson
City: Clearwater
State: Florida
Zip/Postal Code: 33755
Country: United States
[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Yeah you summed it up pretty well for me as well.


Just look at some of the action photos like in our own bios of a luthier or builder actually working on a guitar. Lance's picture comes to mind. A picture like this imparts a great deal more value in my mind than a million dollar CNC machine punching out guitar parts.......



[/QUOTE] YeP, I would agree with that Hesh.A picture like that is much more meaningful.

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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 2:45 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:59 am
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Location: United States
[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Builders like Lance who will make the customer a huge part of the planning process know the value of letting a prospective buyer take psychological ownership of the instrument. Just having the opportunity to pick out your own tonewood, tuners, etc. makes the "buying experience" very personal and endearing as well.

[/QUOTE]

You hit the nail on the head there. The last guitar I completed I let the customer almost build the thing with me. I had him over to ok each step through the process and with each step he got more excited about it. He put the word out and now I'm starting a baritone for a friend of his and may have even another on the back burner.


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2006 9:42 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE]I'm not alone, or Bob Taylor would not be lauching a 'hand-built' line to try to grab guys like me[/QUOTE]

Bob Taylor ought not ta be grabb'in anybody, in my opinion! Didn't know he was like that!

Billy T38845.7810069444

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