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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:26 am 
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Walnut
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I think the neck angle of my RG421 is too high, which is causing my headstock to be at a higher level than my body. You can see in the attached photos the difference in width between the neck and the body as you look towards the left.


Image

Image


I took the neck off, but there were no shims. There was a lot of dust though, that I shook and blew off.


Image

Image

What can I do now to lower neck angle? Should I try tightening the screws as much as possible? I have not reattached the neck yet. Could someone also give me instructions to do that without any equipment?

Sorry about the XXL out-of-focus pics.


Last edited by xtrgamer on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:02 am 
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Tight enough, you dont want to strip a screw. You can try a temporary shim at the back of the neck pocket, match book, folded paper, wood veneer etc. see where you need to go from there. Sounds like your inexperienced, think every move through. Good luck



These users thanked the author Clinchriver for the post: xtrgamer (Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:24 am)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am 
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Walnut
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Clinchriver wrote:
Tight enough, you dont want to strip a screw. You can try a temporary shim at the back of the neck pocket, match book, folded paper, wood veneer etc. see where you need to go from there. Sounds like your inexperienced, think every move through. Good luck


I am indeed inexperienced.

Won't a shim increase the neck angle? Unless you're saying that a shim will even it out, though raise it a little. Not sure if this makes sense, since the shim will be pressed tightly against the base plate which is itself uneven (according to your guess) hence not really solving the problem.

How will I know if I am tightening it too much? Will it do to use an ordinary screwdriver one-handed?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:07 am 
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I think your nut is too high.... nothing to do with your neck angle.

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These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: xtrgamer (Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:14 am)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:09 am 
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Walnut
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Chris Pile wrote:
I think your nut is too high.... nothing to do with your neck angle.


Do you mean the nut slots aren't deep enough? Because I am not even looking at the nut when I'm saying that the headstock is at a higher level than the body of the guitar, I am only looking at the curve of the fretboard, the dark strip of wood that has the dots on it.

Don't you see a slight increase in the gap between the neck and the body in the first two photos?

Also, now that my neck is detached, I can see that the relief is pretty moderate, but because of the angle it looks really warped when attached.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:14 pm 
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X, first, if you post any more pictures or text please resize them to just fill the screen - it is very difficult to scroll around your picture.

Next, put the neck back on with the screws tight but not overly so. String it up and without doing anything else measure the relief, the height of the strings at the first and 12th frets. Use feeler gauges (stack them for the 12th fret). Measure all of the strings. Relief is measured by putting a capo on the first fret, holding a string down at the body juction (19?) and measuring the gap at 8.

Now adjust each saddle thru its entire range and measure the highest and lowest action at 12. Can you get each string adjusted to what you would consider a "playable" action (that varies with players and technique). OK, again, without doing anything, report those findings back here.



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: xtrgamer (Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:06 am)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Quote:
I am indeed inexperienced.


Right. So do some of the stuff we've suggested.... That's why you came to folks with experience.... right?

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These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: xtrgamer (Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:07 am)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
I am indeed inexperienced.


Right. So do some of the stuff we've suggested.... That's why you came to folks with experience.... right?


One of my little rules is that before I do anything I measure everything and write it down. Each adjustment has an effect on others so I do them in a certain order.

When you put the neck back on take one more picture for us. I want to see a 24 inch straight edge laying on the fret board - take a picture of the end of it at the bridge. Something like this

Image



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: xtrgamer (Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:05 am)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Walnut
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Alright guys. I'm going to have to order feeler gauges and a straight edge. Meanwhile, I wanted to say that I had set up my guitar prior to removing the neck, by putting a capo on the first fret and fretting the body fret (19th it is) and adjusting the truss rod so there was around enough space for a paper to slip in at 8th wire without raising the strings. Then I adjusted the action to as low as poss w/out buzz, then set my intonation right.

I felt a bit of buzz on the first fret on all the strings despite my relief and action being reasonable, leading me to believe that either the nut slots were too deep or that the neck angle was high. When I saw the increase in width between the neck and the body, I decided on the latter, removed the neck to check for shims.

Did I do anything wrong?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:09 am 
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Freeman wrote:
Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
I am indeed inexperienced.


Right. So do some of the stuff we've suggested.... That's why you came to folks with experience.... right?


One of my little rules is that before I do anything I measure everything and write it down. Each adjustment has an effect on others so I do them in a certain order.

When you put the neck back on take one more picture for us. I want to see a 24 inch straight edge laying on the fret board - take a picture of the end of it at the bridge. Something like this

Image


24-inch straight edges are difficult to find in my country, they are either packs of ten or imported from US, they alone cost more than a professional luthier fix.

I found this one but as you can see there is a gap between the end of the ruler and where the measurement starts, making it useless. But will it do?

http://www.amazon.in/Westcott-Aluminum- ... edge+ruler

Also, before I confirm the feeler guages, please check this:

http://www.amazon.in/MASTER-FEELER-GAUG ... eler+gauge

It's the only one I found with inch readings (because I guess that is more convenient).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:43 am 
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We tend to work in inches in the US but metric is just fine. Use what you can get easily and just do the conversions.

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These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: xtrgamer (Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:10 am)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:46 am 
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Walnut
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I have purchased the feelers, but it will arrive only around 28th-29th. Please stick around until then, thanks a bunch.

I reattached the neck, and something's different, will upload *smaller* pics


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Both the straightedge and feeler gauges are fine and if you end up working on guitars much you'll use them a lot. We will be using the straightedge mostly for its straight side - the little gap is normal and won't be a problem. When they arrive we'll be here.



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: xtrgamer (Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:10 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:48 am 
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Walnut
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When I reattached the neck, I held it to the base plate with all the strength the Lord has granted me, then tightened the screws as much as I could with one hand. Here are the results.


Image

Image


There seems to be a back angle now, the neck is still visually bent forwards and the strings buzz more than ever. Once the feelers arrive I will give all the possible measurements.

Also, I ordered a 60 cm/24 inch metal ruler, which I read also functions as a straight-edge.

Are the pics too small now or can I fix this size for all photos now on?


Last edited by xtrgamer on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:46 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:05 am 
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Walnut
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Alright guys, the straight-edge arrived and I took a bunch of measurements that I thought would be helpful (starts at the tip). All inches.

Distance between fretboard and string at the nut:
E 2/32
B 2/32
G 2/32
D 2/32 (halfway between 2 and 3/32)
A 3/32
E 3/32

Action at the twelfth fret:
E 1/32
B 1/32
G 1/32 (halfway between 1 and 2/32)
D 2/32
A 2/32
E 2/32 (quarterway between 2 and 3/32)

Unfortunately my scale is only accurate to 1/32nds of an inch, so I tried to give my estimations as well to help out.

I also wanted to give you guys some information about my guitar: its scale is 25.5", it has 24 frets and I am currently using 10 gauge strings. You can see the neck measurements here: http://www.ibanez.com/products/eg_detai ... color=CL01

I have a hardtail bridge that has independently adjustable saddles.


Last edited by xtrgamer on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:10 am 
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Walnut
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Freeman wrote:
Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
I am indeed inexperienced.


Right. So do some of the stuff we've suggested.... That's why you came to folks with experience.... right?


One of my little rules is that before I do anything I measure everything and write it down. Each adjustment has an effect on others so I do them in a certain order.

When you put the neck back on take one more picture for us. I want to see a 24 inch straight edge laying on the fret board - take a picture of the end of it at the bridge. Something like this

Image


So you want me to just put the straight-edge along the neck? Could give me a little more details about exactly how you want me to do it? Do I need to take the strings off again? The scale is a bit shorter than the distance BTW.

Also, please check out the post above the post above this one, in which I have attached pics of how my neck angle looks now, on both sides of the neck and tell me if it's okay, thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:28 am 
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One last thing, I wanted to give you guys an idea of what the relief on my guitar is like.

Image


Last edited by xtrgamer on Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:11 am 
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Here is some help with setting string action.

Note; If you choose to use measurements in setting the string height- measure from the top of 17th fret, not fretboard, to bottom of string.
Also; setting intonation may possibly change string height so double check after setting intonation.
After getting the action set as your prefer check the pickups height - measure from magnet/screws to bottom of string. There is not a set amount for this.
Having a good ear is the best tool for this job.

I'm offering "string action" help because I have reasons to believe that the issues are not because of neck angle. I could be wrong but it's obvious to me that
you don't know how to set the action so it's a good place to start.

If the string action can not be set then there may be issues with the nut or neck angle.

Knowing the "common" or "correct" ways of taking measurements will help others help you. Since there are numerous ways these can be obtained you may want
to explore youtube videos to determine what may work best for you.

Good luck.




These users thanked the author Sandywood for the post: xtrgamer (Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:21 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:30 am 
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Walnut
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Sandywood wrote:
Here is some help with setting string action.

Note; If you choose to use measurements in setting the string height- measure from the top of 17th fret, not fretboard, to bottom of string.
Also; setting intonation may possibly change string height so double check after setting intonation.
After getting the action set as your prefer check the pickups height - measure from magnet/screws to bottom of string. There is not a set amount for this.
Having a good ear is the best tool for this job.

I'm offering "string action" help because I have reasons to believe that the issues are not because of neck angle. I could be wrong but it's obvious to me that
you don't know how to set the action so it's a good place to start.

If the string action can not be set then there may be issues with the nut or neck angle.

Knowing the "common" or "correct" ways of taking measurements will help others help you. Since there are numerous ways these can be obtained you may want
to explore youtube videos to determine what may work best for you.

Good luck.



You don't think the truss rod needs any adjustment either? If there's a truss rod adjustment required, which we will know for sure only after the feelers arrive, setting my action right now is pointless, right?

Though you're probably right about me not knowing how to set the action very well, I think I had set it pretty decently before I readjusted the neck and it all went to hell. I had tuned my guitar to D, set the action very low until the buzz was minimum, then tuned to standard (which is what I usually use) to eliminate buzz. No, I did not use measurements at the time, but the measurements I posted earlier were from the 12th fret to the string, I chose 12th since most guidelines online are for the 12th fret.

Did I do anything wrong?


EDIT: I found the youtube video when I quoted you, I've seen this video before it's what I used before I adjusted my action back then, along with a bunch of many other similar videos.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:11 pm 
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xtrgamer wrote:

You don't think the truss rod needs any adjustment either? If there's a truss rod adjustment required, which we will know for sure only after the feelers arrive, setting my action right now is pointless, right?


Lets wait until your feeler gauges arrive - your measurements to 1/32 are way to coarse for what we are trying to do. As far as the truss rod - it may or may not need adjustment, if it does that is the first thing we do. (Actually the first thing I always do is deal with any structural issues and make sure the frets are good).

I measure the playing action at the 12th fret (some people measure electrics at some other place farther up the neck). My argument is two fold - I measure every instrument there so its always the same and since that is the midpoint of the scale any change I want to make at 12 involves twice as much at the bridge (ie, if I want to lower the action 0.010 I need to lower the bridge 20 thou).

Adjusting the truss rod WILL change the action, changing the action does not change the relief. In general you want as low a relief as you can get - I shoot for 4 or 5 thousands of an inch measured half way between the nut and body joint (about the 8th fret on your guitar). Low relief allows you to lower the action without buzzing, but also requires that the frets be perfect.

Each of us who does setup work will have our own target values for different measurements - the bottom line is the best playability for the person playing the guitar. Here are my targets but again, they can vary with the player and his/her style

Relief 0.004 to 0.010 max
Top of first fret to bottom of string - high E 0.014 gradually going up to high E at 0.018
Top of 12th fret to bottom of string - high E 0.065-0.070 gradually going up to high E at 0.080-0.090

Those values will be about as low as you can go, often they will end up a bit higher. Relief is measured by putting a capo on the first fret and holding the high and low E strings down at the body junction (probably about 19 on your guitar), measure the gap in the middle. You also want to see that gap gradually getting less as it moves from the middle towards the nut and body. One little trick on checking relief is while holding a string at the body joint tap it above each fret - you should hear a little ping that goes up in pitch as you approach the nut or body. This confirms that you have some gap at each fret.

After everything is done throw a new set of strings on (same gauge used for the setup) and set the intonation and pickups

btw - pictures are much better



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: xtrgamer (Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:07 am)
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:55 am 
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Freeman wrote:
xtrgamer wrote:
Relief 0.004 to 0.010 max
Top of first fret to bottom of string - high E 0.014 gradually going up to high E at 0.018
Top of 12th fret to bottom of string - high E 0.065-0.070 gradually going up to high E at 0.080-0.090


My feelers have arrived.

This is strange... with all my upbow the relief at the 8th fret of my guitar on the low and high E string is 0.11 mm, i.e. 0.004330709 inches (obviously not that accurate) which seems on the lower side. What could the problem be? Should I ignore the upbow and continue onward to adjust the action?

I should have mentioned this earlier, I pick pretty hard, which means that I should probably loosen my truss rod, even though that will increase the upbow.

P.S. In the part of your post that I have quoted, you mean:

Top of first fret to bottom of string - high E 0.014 gradually going up to low E at 0.018
Top of 12th fret to bottom of string - high E 0.065-0.070 gradually going up to low E at 0.080-0.090

Right?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:06 pm 
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My personal target is relief of 0.004 - 0.005", its pretty hard to get much below that. I'll let it go a little higher depending on other factors. If you want to wade all the way thru it, here is a really good analysis of neck relief (written by a guy who does mostly acoustics but the principals are the same).

http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/neck_relief_1.htm

And yes, my bad on the LOW E string values. Actually the values that I use for nut clearance are also from Kimsey, they seem to work pretty well for all guitars. The 12th fret action numbers are lower for an electric than he uses.



These users thanked the author Freeman for the post: xtrgamer (Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:06 am)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:13 am 
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Freeman wrote:
My personal target is relief of 0.004 - 0.005", its pretty hard to get much below that. I'll let it go a little higher depending on other factors. If you want to wade all the way thru it, here is a really good analysis of neck relief (written by a guy who does mostly acoustics but the principals are the same).

http://www.bryankimsey.com/setup/neck_relief_1.htm

And yes, my bad on the LOW E string values. Actually the values that I use for nut clearance are also from Kimsey, they seem to work pretty well for all guitars. The 12th fret action numbers are lower for an electric than he uses.


So you want me to ignore the upbow? What do you think is the reason that despite my guitar's upbow the relief is so low? Just tell me what to do about this, and I'll post the results when I'm finally done.

Also, the Kimsey site is down.

EDIT: You say that the relief doesn't go much below .004", but I remember turning my truss rod too much and getting the strings flat against the frets while I was checking the relief.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:47 am 
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xtrgamer wrote:
Freeman wrote:

EDIT: You say that the relief doesn't go much below .004", but I remember turning my truss rod too much and getting the strings flat against the frets while I was checking the relief.

I believe he meant that it's hard to get it that low without some buzzing issues.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:51 pm 
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I agree with most of the advice you've gotten so far, but I believe you could loosen the truss rod just a little.
0.0043" is a little low for relief, it takes really good fretwork for relief to be that low and also have really low action.

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