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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:14 pm 
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Walnut
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Anyone have any experience spray painting over nitro, relic'ing leaving most of the original finish underneath, and then clearcoating over that? How about over paper and vinyl stickers? 


I have a project I am working on. The guitar isn't done, so this is a little ways off, but I'm planning ahead. 


I'm trying to do a replica of a guitar. The original was a Fender, spray painted over the original nitro finish. Then, what I believe were semi-gloss paper stickers were applied. 


Over a relative short time of a few years, the guitar became relic'd, witch some of the spray paint wearing off, eventually to a point that it no longer looks good at all. There was a particular, in-between point, in when I liked the way that it looked. 


I could spray over this guitar and make it look like that, but my challenge is that I want to want to freeze it in time and don't know how to do this. 


In the most basic sense, the nitro would be sprayed over with a metallic spray paint. Then it would be relic'd to satisfaction and then stickers applied.  Finally the guitar would be clear coated enough to protect it and freeze it in time. 


Challenges:

1)The issue with the stickers is that I don't have paper ones, but had them reproduced in vinyl, so I don't know if a clear coat will stick. I could try to reproduce them in paper, but that's another rabbit hole as I already have vinyl ones. 


2)No idea how or which clearcoat will bond to the spray paint and the nitro, and how all 3 layers will hold up, with the stickers included. 


3)I also don't want to dull the metallic spray paint. It's not like silver/gold chrome or anything but like a metallic silver/pink color. Basically, it still has to look like that and be a bit reflective (not like a mirror). 


4)Keeping this from turning into a sticky, soupy, mess. 


I have been thinking a possible solution for at least the paint portion would be to lightly sand the nitro so it isn't glossy and then spray paint that, so it might stick better. The problem I see with that is that it might be difficult to then properly wear (relic) it accurately. 


I'd take this to someone who does it for a living, but I'm very particular about this relic job and really want to do it myself so I don't have someone else to blame. It's a very personal thing to me.


Maybe during the clearcoat stage I could take it to someone else, but need to do the rest myself and know what to expect /plan in advance.

Thank you!
Cee


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:50 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
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Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
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Cee wrote:
Maybe during the clearcoat stage I could take it to someone else, but need to do the rest myself and know what to expect /plan in advance.


I would not touch a job like that with a 10 foot pole..... Because it will most likely peel and fail.



Cee wrote:
I'd take this to someone who does it for a living, but I'm very particular about this relic job and really want to do it myself so I don't have someone else to blame. It's a very personal thing to me.


Exactly why I do not do any more of these relic things period....

Some advice:
Clear will not stick to large vinyl stickers. No mechanical bond so it will chip, peel and flake in time. Find another way.... Print your own paper versions and adhere them with something appropriate for the finish system.

You should do this all in one system. Nitro under a harder acrylic will creep and adhesion issues down the road will most likely crop up. Doing it all in nitro will be difficult as nitro wets out completely with each new coat so bleed between the metallic and base will happen unless generous lock down clear is used which of course increases film thickness and dry/cure times. I would recommend a 2K urethane base/clearcoat system like PPG duron for a complex color stack like this. You will still need some lockdown coats to do the decoupage faux paper stickers.

With metallics, "relicing" must be done as a rub before the recoat window closes so clear can still be added to avoid sanding the metallic and exposing the aluminum etc.

Good luck on this.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/



These users thanked the author B. Howard for the post (total 2): Cee (Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:23 pm) • Hesh (Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:44 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:27 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Why don't you just "go for it".
If it doesn't come out right,
grind it all off and start over.
Best way to learn, IMO.
Alan


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Did anyone say "Try it on some scrap first" yet?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:33 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Take a large grain of salt here because I have zero experience with this. I'm just thinking outside of the box. Would it be possible to do the relicing first? Could you choose the sections you want to be without silver, mask them off and finish them with the under color/finish. Then prep properly to spray the silver sections so as to achieve a permanent bond but knowing the paint wold fail on the areas you used the udercoat on. Once it was all cured properly, you could encourage the silver paint to come off of the areas you prefinshed, relic with dings and scratches then add your stickers?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:07 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

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alan stassforth wrote:
Why don't you just "go for it".
If it doesn't come out right,
grind it all off and start over.
Best way to learn, IMO.
Alan


Thanks for your reply.
If I have to take it all off, the issue is taking the original finish/stain off along with it, and not being able to replicate it.l from a blank canvas.
The original finish is a typical Strat sunburst That is black in the edges, and then brown, amber etc. The guitar is also 1.1k - 2k used, so as much as I can do to get it right the first time, the better! Lol


Last edited by Cee on Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:09 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

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SteveSmith wrote:
Did anyone say "Try it on some scrap first" yet?


A possibility, but if someone had a previously tested method it could help. It would be difficult for me to replicate the original finish which is a Strat sunburst I described in my previous post.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:22 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

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Bryan Bear wrote:
Take a large grain of salt here because I have zero experience with this. I'm just thinking outside of the box. Would it be possible to do the relicing first? Could you choose the sections you want to be without silver, mask them off and finish them with the under color/finish. Then prep properly to spray the silver sections so as to achieve a permanent bond but knowing the paint wold fail on the areas you used the udercoat on. Once it was all cured properly, you could encourage the silver paint to come off of the areas you prefinshed, relic with dings and scratches then add your stickers?


Thanks for your reply.
This is actually something I'm considering, but would have to be done ultra carefully, and some of the spray paint and finish underneath might be overlapping.

Basically, the original guitar had its nitro spray painted over and stickers applied. Over time, the crappy bond between the spray paint and the nitro cause the spray paint layer to relic ultra fast. For a few years, it looked pretty cool, but then the guitar ending up looking like crap. Actually, now that I have posted pics in a later post below, I see that in 2 years or less, a lot of the finish wore off... That was quick!

At first, the spray paint kept coming of at edges mostly, and in a few other places from general usage of the guitar... Pick scratches and hand/arm placement etc.

The crappy bond between the spray paint and the nitro mkch actually make it much easier to "relic" the spray paint away accurately.

Basically, I could totally sand or at least partially sand (rough up) the places where there was no wear, to ensure a better bond, but because of what I just explained, there could be places where the spray paint and nitro overlap.

I could try to rough up the whole finish, but I'm not totally sure then I'll be able to replicate the relic'ing so easily.


Last edited by Cee on Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:30 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:38 pm
Posts: 7
B. Howard wrote:
Cee wrote:
Maybe during the clearcoat stage I could take it to someone else, but need to do the rest myself and know what to expect /plan in advance.


I would not touch a job like that with a 10 foot pole..... Because it will most likely peel and fail.



Cee wrote:
I'd take this to someone who does it for a living, but I'm very particular about this relic job and really want to do it myself so I don't have someone else to blame. It's a very personal thing to me.


Exactly why I do not do any more of these relic things period....

Some advice:
Clear will not stick to large vinyl stickers. No mechanical bond so it will chip, peel and flake in time. Find another way.... Print your own paper versions and adhere them with something appropriate for the finish system.

You should do this all in one system. Nitro under a harder acrylic will creep and adhesion issues down the road will most likely crop up. Doing it all in nitro will be difficult as nitro wets out completely with each new coat so bleed between the metallic and base will happen unless generous lock down clear is used which of course increases film thickness and dry/cure times. I would recommend a 2K urethane base/clearcoat system like PPG duron for a complex color stack like this. You will still need some lockdown coats to do the decoupage faux paper stickers.

With metallics, "relicing" must be done as a rub before the recoat window closes so clear can still be added to avoid sanding the metallic and exposing the aluminum etc.

Good luck on this.


Thanks for your detailed reply. Please read my last post above to see if you think the partial sand/rough up will work at all.

As far as the stickers, maybe I can get them on paper (hopefully ultra thin). I'm not looking to have a perfect glass finish like a tabletop, but the flatter the better I suppose.

BTW, I don't have them on hand, but I don't think they are more than 2" each.. It's just that there are over 20 of them (don't know off the top of my head and too lazy to go count lol).

I could also just print a gazillion of these stickers and maybe stick them over the clear coat instead of under I suppose. It would be nice to out them under, but if it's too problematic, maybe I can do this workaround.

The guitar is not my main guitar but it would be definitely played, and could be my main guitar depending on how my music projects pan out. Mostly, I have a main guitar that I'm virtually married to, but this guitar is necessary for a particular sound that is part of my diverse arsenal. Likely, it might be on display mostly, but I'd love to protect the thing from additional playwear if I could! Freeze it in time.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:32 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:38 pm
Posts: 7
Thanks a bunch for everyone replies. I didn't realize I didn't have notifications for this post turned on, but now I do. Sorry, if I didn't respond quickly.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:47 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:38 pm
Posts: 7
.

I will post some images of the original, if you know what it is, please don't declare/type it in here since this is a secret project at the moment!
What I'm going for are the in-between stages, where most of the spray paint was still on, but tattered on the edges etc.



Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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