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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:27 pm 
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Cocobolo
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First name: Raul
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Hi Everyone,
This Gibson was brought to me by a friend. Someone tripped over it and down it went. Seems to be a clean break, no missing pieces. I've never done a repair like this. Seems too simple to just apply glue as far as I can and clamp it. Looking for some feedback from the forum on how to go about this repair. What glue would you use? I've never worked with fish glue, but from what I've read, the open time might be a benefit. My friend is just looking to getting it playable. Not worrying about the finish at this time.
Thanks for any help!
Raúl


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:03 pm 
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Titebond is the way to go, Raul. Or any yellow woodworkers aliphatic resin. Thin the glue a bit if you like. Take the hardware off before clamping and use cauls to spread the pressure. Good luck!

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These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: guitarradTJ (Tue Jul 26, 2022 5:44 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 7:30 pm 
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I don’t want to start a big fight or a long argument, so just look and if you don’t like my statement, ignore it and go on with your life: If you have the ability, hot hide glue is called for here. You can warm the area with a hair dryer to get the working time. Set up your clamps and cauls and do a trial dry clamping before you glue. If it all fits right, inject the glue, clamp it, wait, and you’re done. If it doesn’t fit right, make it fit right.

Getting one of these after someone ‘s Titebond repair failed isn’t fun. First, you have to clean out the Titebond. Then you have to make it fit. HHG doesn’t need to be cleaned out, just reactivated.



These users thanked the author bobgramann for the post: guitarradTJ (Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:37 am)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:14 pm 
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I understand where you’re coming from Bob. I too would generally use HHG for this repair, but I think an aliphatic wood glue would also be appropriate. I’ve never seen a Titebond wood glue up fail on the glue line — there’s always fresh wood broken if a headstock rebreaks (yes, seen that too). And I know some repairers who I respect and who have access to both, but who would reach for the TB for its longer open time — a factor that is critical when doing headstock repairs. Do the job well (you outlined the critical points), this headstock will never break on the glue line with either glue.

No argument to avoid epoxy and CA on such a clean fresh break.


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These users thanked the author Tim Mullin for the post (total 2): guitarradTJ (Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:38 am) • Chris Pile (Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:32 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 8:33 pm 
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Titebond works well, and has a long track record to back up its reputation. It's been my go-to adhesive for headstock breaks for over 40 years.

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These users thanked the author Chris Pile for the post: guitarradTJ (Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:38 am)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:05 pm 
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HHG has properties that seem to attract the perfectionists, but the original poster sounds like he's doing a friend a favor anf tooling up and using HHG for what sounds like this one repair is excessive fussiness according to me. Small bottle of Titebond Original, yes bigger is cheaper per unit, but lots of partially-used big bottles get discarded. And not Titebond II or Titebond III, regular old Original Titebond.

And dry-run the whole glue-up and clamping before repeating the process using glue.

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These users thanked the author phavriluk for the post (total 2): guitarradTJ (Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:39 am) • Chris Pile (Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:33 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:06 pm 
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Thin the Titebond I 10% with water. Mix and suck up in a syringe without the needle. Add the needle and use it to put glue up the crack and spread it. Clamp, clean squeeze out, and leave it for two days. Works every time.



These users thanked the author fumblefinger for the post (total 2): guitarradTJ (Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:39 am) • Chris Pile (Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:33 pm)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:44 am 
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Thanks everyone, great input!
I’ve used HHG on my last few guitars. I like working with it, but don’t want to over complicate this repair. I’ll do a dry run, check how everything fits and go from there.
Thanks again!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:14 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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While you guys debate glue... not a mention of clamping and how that will be interacting with this member's efforts to repair this SG.

So a pro shop would have a headstock jig, maybe and/or be skilled in these breaks with the knowledge that good clamping is every bit as important as the glue because clamping and glue work together as a system.

We use a jig that Dave Collins designed and built and has been pictured here many times. Others have built our jig and use it too. So for us we can set-up the clamping jig so we can meet the short open requirements of HHG for these and that's what we use.

But Titebond original would be a fine choice and I agree with Chris and Fumblefinger on it's selection as an option and maybe your best option since HHG has a learning curve AND you don't have a headstock jig. Without the jig you will be setting clamps and messing with them for perhaps beyond the 15 second benchmark that we use for HHG use and having everything in place and snugged down.

Thinned Titebond is what I do for top cracks that are too tight to open up easily dry and then once I have little tiny beads of thinned Titebond on the inside of the box/crack I follow up with full strength Titebond using the thinned stuff as a "carrier" for the thick stuff. This is a Rick Turner innovation or that's who taught me and he did this with both HHG and Titebond original (only original when I speak of Titebond).

So look everyone here is where I'm coming from regardless of which glue may be the "best" choice there are at times other good choices. If the best choice requires chops or tooling that may not be present are we doing anyone any favors recommending something that is more difficult to use or do?

My North Star in when I advise people to use HHG and where is do they have the knowledge and chops to pull it off with-in the open time.

For us though headstock repair jig, HHG, finish touch-up and the repair is often invisible and when not invisible very close to invisible.

I'll see if I can find a pic of the jig we use to give you some ideas of the clampage that we employ as a commercial shop that does one of these or more weekly and they are often Gibsons too.

Good luck

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Last edited by Hesh on Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:30 am 
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I find mention of the head stock jig but no pics so if you have one please post it? Thanks.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:51 am 
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Found a poor pic of it on FRETS.net,

So the jig and clamps are all set-up in the dry runs before applying glue. Once the jig is all set glue is applied, the parts may be preheated but it's not necessary for us with this jig and the clamps are set.

As you can see three of the clamps are only a lever to flip so all of the clamps can be set for us with this jig in seconds and not even minutes.

If you wonder why the rush, HHG that's why and that's also informed the kind of clamps used on the jig that can be quickly deployed.

We have a caul set that we made for all manner of different headstock shapes too for the top of the headstock where the clamps apply downward pressure.

So I know you don't have this jig and are highly unlikely to make one for one repair. But hopefully it will give you some ideas on where the clamping is applied and why.


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These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 3): Durero (Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:10 am) • guitarradTJ (Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:02 am) • joshnothing (Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:56 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:55 am 
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One last tip from me, compressed air is useful to blow glue into the deep reaches of a break.

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These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: Durero (Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:10 am)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:07 am 
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Hesh wrote:
Found a poor pic of it on FRETS.net,

So the jig and clamps are all set-up in the dry runs before applying glue. Once the jig is all set glue is applied, the parts may be preheated but it's not necessary for us with this jig and the clamps are set.

As you can see three of the clamps are only a lever to flip so all of the clamps can be set for us with this jig in seconds and not even minutes.

If you wonder why the rush, HHG that's why and that's also informed the kind of clamps used on the jig that can be quickly deployed.

We have a caul set that we made for all manner of different headstock shapes too for the top of the headstock where the clamps apply downward pressure.

So I know you don't have this jig and are highly unlikely to make one for one repair. But hopefully it will give you some ideas on where the clamping is applied and why.


Hesh, you always go above and beyond with your answers. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and experience. This is great stuff, and totally makes sense. I'm starting to take in more repair work. A jig like this will make sense at some point. Maybe for this repair, depending on my buddy's timeline.
Thank you all, what a great community.



These users thanked the author guitarradTJ for the post: Hesh (Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:26 am)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:31 am 
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Hey Raul thanks for the thanks very much appreciated!!

Yeah in our repair world headstock breaks are a bread and butter repair and pretty common. Gibsons dominate the guitars that we see with broken headstocks too.

So our jig is a big money maker for us and almost always have a guitar clamped in it. We once considered making a second one since at times we have more than one break in here at the same time.

Might be over kill for you unless you want to to more repairs which would be great. But the jig still gives you some ideas on the various ways and places to clamp up the repair.

Good luck and let me know if you have any questions I am always happy to help.

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These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: guitarradTJ (Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:09 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:37 am 
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Hello everyone,

I do quite a bit of headstock repairs, too, and have been more than a bit envious of Dave and Hesh's jig. But not having machinist tools, let alone skills, I get by making custom cauls quite often. That's a RPITA, not to mention the time it takes to assemble the whole shebang, pretty much precluding the use of HHG.

While shopping for a long radius beam at Guitars and Woods (Portugal, check their prices folks!) I stumbled upon a new jig of theirs for gluing broken headstocks they’re selling pretty cheaply.

Anyone tried it yet? I fully realize it's made of wood and I could make one of those, but hey, time is money.

http://guitarsandwoods.com/index.php?ro ... ct_id=4244


Pierre
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These users thanked the author Smylight for the post: Hesh (Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:11 am)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:20 pm 
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Love that it comes with a caul for the top of the peghead pre-shaped for Gibson :D

€130?? It wouldn’t be hard to build but at that price why bother? It’d pay for itself on the first peghead repair.



These users thanked the author joshnothing for the post (total 2): Smylight (Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:10 am) • Hesh (Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:43 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:43 am 
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joshnothing wrote:
Love that it comes with a caul for the top of the peghead pre-shaped for Gibson :D

€130?? It wouldn’t be hard to build but at that price why bother? It’d pay for itself on the first peghead repair.


laughing6-hehe I thought that too. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:13 am 
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Looks like I might be the first here to try this I guess. Doesn't look very convincingly built, but their stuff is usually top-notch so I'm tempted to give it a try. Might work well enough for some breaks, so…

I'll start a new thread just to see if someone not lurking in this one sees it. Thanks guys.

Pierre
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:14 pm 
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The Collins jig has the advantage of having toggle clamps. One of the pains about headstock repair is trying to manage cauls and clamps at the same time. Plus you (I) seem to overtighten the clamps resulting in some clean up work at the repair seams. The toggle clamps let you set everything up and adjust the tension before you have any glue in place. My boss and I had just discussed making a jig for this type of break after doing the second one in less than 2 months this week.

I intend to make one for the headstock break, I just haven't had time to draw it up. But it will be similar to the one I did for the neck cracks emanating from the nut shelf. (Why no one radius' here is beyond me. It would eliminate the "stress riser" present at all 90 degree corners)

Here's a shot of the neck jig in action and the end result. There has been no finish applied to the neck. It is simply filling any gap and sanding flush.


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Last edited by fumblefinger on Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.


These users thanked the author fumblefinger for the post: Hesh (Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:46 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:20 pm 
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BTW, the board with the relief cuts for the fingerboard is removable and others can be made to suit the current instrument. Here's the same jig with a banjo.


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These users thanked the author fumblefinger for the post: Hesh (Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:45 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:28 pm 
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fumblefinger wrote:
The Collins jig has the advantage of having toggle clamps. One of the pains about headstock repair is trying to manage cauls and clamps at the same time. Plus you (I) seem to overtighten the clamps resulting in some clean up work at the repair seams. The toggle clamps let you set everything up and adjust the tension before you have any glue in place. My boss and I had just discussed making a jig for this type of break after doing the second one in less than 2 months this week.


Can you elaborate on this over-tightening issue? Are you saying there’s a level of pressure that closes the joint with no squeezeout to clean up? Or am I misunderstanding you? I always have squeezeout to deal with but I use HHG 99% of the time, so it’s just a quick wash down with warm water.

I still see great utility in the toggles for speed and ease of getting pressure on.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:47 am 
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fumblefinger wrote:
The Collins jig has the advantage of having toggle clamps. One of the pains about headstock repair is trying to manage cauls and clamps at the same time. Plus you (I) seem to overtighten the clamps resulting in some clean up work at the repair seams. The toggle clamps let you set everything up and adjust the tension before you have any glue in place. My boss and I had just discussed making a jig for this type of break after doing the second one in less than 2 months this week.

I intend to make one for the headstock break, I just haven't had time to draw it up. But it will be similar to the one I did for the neck cracks emanating from the nut shelf. (Why no one radius' here is beyond me. It would eliminate the "stress riser" present at all 90 degree corners)

Here's a shot of the neck jig in action and the end result. There has been no finish applied to the neck. It is simply filling any gap and sanding flush.


Allan pretty cool jig you made there, good going!!

You are exactly right about the toggle clamps they are a big part of what makes the jig a great way to repair headstocks.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:28 am 
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joshnothing wrote:

Can you elaborate on this over-tightening issue? Are you saying there’s a level of pressure that closes the joint with no squeezeout to clean up? Or am I misunderstanding you? I always have squeezeout to deal with but I use HHG 99% of the time, so it’s just a quick wash down with warm water.

I still see great utility in the toggles for speed and ease of getting pressure on.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sure. What I've experienced is the top of the headstock at the joint gets pushed down hard enough that it flares out a bit on the "Smile" type of break. I get good squeeze out, but excess pressure will flare the edges of the thinnest part, so they have to be scraped flush with the other side. Usually it's not a lot, but there is enough mismatch that you can catch the edge with your fingernail. It's not a big deal to get it flush, but it increases the time put to the job.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:22 am 
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Raul, for a one time shot I'd suggest doing something similar to what we did in the following pics. Use the two clamps up on the headstock and add one further down near the nut. Do a test run and then glue it up.


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