Official Luthiers Forum!

just another video that illustrates what some of us probably prefer not to think about:

http://www.upworthy.com/check-out-the-d ... tes?c=pol1

When it shows the areas up close you start to think "wow that's a big area of forest that's gone". But then it zooms out again and compared to the whole amazon rainforests you can barely see it! That place is huge and I don't think it's going anywhere in a hurry.

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"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

i do. because once the roads are in place, that's it. then it expands from there. roads are 99% of the battle. then everyone has access, forever- farmers, ranchers, miners, airstrips, electricity, builders, gas stations, malls, ad infinitum
....but if "for awhile" means 75 years or so, then maybe you're right.

Yes, far less evidence of "extreme" deforestation than expected.

The same can be said of every country in history whose population expands and are in need of greater agrarian support.

Who are we to tell these folks that they can't farm their lands? I understand this is a hot topic for environmental concerns, but if we're so concerned about the loss of oxygen from all these trees, we should plant more here and from everywhere else that we have removed them...and yes, I realize it's more than just oxygen. It's their land, not ours. They have to make the call.

Just imagine if Europe had all this technology when the U.S. was being settled...they would have been saying the same thing.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Well said, Don.

Actually, it took an incoming Scotsman to "interfere" to take the necessary steps to preserve the Californian redwoods.

If it had been left to the American settlers, these redwoods would be but a distant memory today.

A similar analogy is appropriate when it comes to the rainforests IMO.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I don't care, because I do, but like Don said, it was far less than I had expected after hearing all these stories about massive areas of jungle being wiped out.

_________________
"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

Exactly. It seems that there is a segment of our society that will only embrace the principle of private property when a large mob comes after THEIR stuff.

The fact is, the luthier community is doing the VERY THING that provides a reason to cut down the rain forest. Being "aware" of deforestation in this subculture is a bizarre rationalization in my opinion. If you are worried about the rain forest...stop making guitars from those hardwoods and live by your own principles. But I don't see that happening at all. Rather, I see a lot of hand wringing, a lot of guitars being built, and lot of calls for ME to be more aware that I'm using wood to build guitars...and a lot of calls for ME to live by a confusing principle.

I'd rather embrace the notion that nature includes an element of change. If I'm a part nature, I'm going to change aspects of it. That's a clear truth...a simple notion that cannot be argued. I have a responsibility to feed my family and that will come out of the Earth in one way or the other. I'll tend to my immediate surroundings and do it well if I can...but to assume the burden of tending to the planet will overwhelm me...

....and despite my presence the planet inexplicably survives.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

btw....using Google maps you can inspect the Brazilian rain forest fairly closely for yourself using the satellite mode. I've done this many times in the context of discussions on deforestation. You might find it interesting.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

I have long wondered at the incongruity of a star standing on a stage railing about deforestation while holding a custom guitar made of some rare tonewood. Trees are a renewable resource. Proper management of that resource is the key.

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

You guys also brought Cytisus Scoparius (Scotch Broom) with you...which is one of the most noxious, tenacious, invasive weeds on the planet. If you have any land west of the Cascades you're hard pressed to have any Scots on your Christmas list So...two edged sword there.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

You can't leave forests alone. Some trees need to be cut down to let in sunlight allowing plants to grow better. If the forest become too thick then it is actually bad for them. The key is selective logging, cutting down only trees that are fit to be cut down but it's a lot more expensive than clear cutting, so loggers often choose clear cutting.

You have to realize all the guitars built in the world probably use less than 1% of woods from those rare trees, everything else gets made into expensive flooring, furnitures, etc. or even ground up into pulp.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I'm not sure that's an accurate or complete picture of the facts.

This is why it's important to buy from responsible sources. From my understanding, with the exception of Madagascar Ebony, <i>most<i> places most of us get our woods from are sustainability harvested because developed nations have a legitimate interest in making money off of their forests. However, consumers who buy cheap Chinese made guitars built with high quality woods (guild and eastman are what I see the most of) cannot exactly say the same about the wood in their instruments. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_lo ... Madagascar) Similar things happen in other places too, and thats the main problem where we come into play.

On a different note, I'm in the process of experimenting with locally sourced woods such as red maple, black walnut and cherry. I'd love to build a guitar out of beech at this point too. In my opinion, anyone can make a a guitar that looks great using rain forest woods. However, I think it's an exciting challenge to try to do so differently.

...just for the record, i never suggested (or stated)that they can't/shouldn't farm their land. just a quick vid of awareness, thats all.

der doppelposten

also:


the forests(and everything else) evolved and thrived just fine for hundreds of millions of years without human loggers "coming to the rescue". a true virgin forest cannot "become too thick", at least not for long. it manages itself all by itself.

When making homebrew you add a small amount of yeast to a mixture rich in sugars and nutrients. As the yeast population multiplies it uses the resources at an ever increasing rate until they are either used up and the colony dies, or the pollutants the yeast creates (alcohol) become so greatly concentrated that the colony dies.
It would be nice to think we are smarter than a yeast colony, but I'm not sure that we are. A corollary of "not in my backyard", is "not in my lifetime". I think most of us (myself included) would rather let the next generation make the hard choices.

from wikipedia:

The giant sequoia was brought into cultivation in 1853 by Scotsman John D. Matthew, who collected a small quantity of seed in the Calaveras Grove, arriving with it in Scotland in August 1853.[5] A much larger shipment of seed collected (also in the Calaveras Grove) by William Lobb, acting for the Veitch Nursery at Budlake near Exeter, arrived in England in December 1853;[6] seed from this batch was widely distributed throughout Europe.

so much for any argument of 'conservation'....sheesh....

the argument of some trees need to be cut down for the betterment of the forest is iffy at best...what do we as wood workers value in wood?...seems to be universally small growth rings which is caused (many times) by very thick forests which cause slower growth....thinning of the forests certainly can result in faster growth, which will result in a higher available yield per tree in a shorter time...blah, blah, blah...

I think the best we can do as world citizens is argue for responsible use of wood (and you know considering the many uses of hemp, chopping up forests of s/p/f for paper products is a sin) taking into consideration the needs of the local populace...

while small time luthiers account for very little of the hardwood use on this planet, I think it can be argued that the big manufacturers of instruments use a LOT of it...planting trees in other places to account for oxygen loss from trees felled elsewhere certainly seems a viable concept UNTIL you start thinking of the correlation between the rainforests of South America and the deserts of Africa, i.e. the planetary flow of winds...

much of the above is for stirring up thoughts...I will concretely say that while I think native populations have the right to use their forests as needed for their survival, I am opposed to big corporations like McDonald's causing the cutting of huge tracts of land so that crops can be planted so that cattle can be fed there (a very short sighted concept as the land is not really viable for farming for more than a year or so) so that said cattle can in turn be sold back to America to feed a bunch of fat lazy people for a bit lower of a price...

I suspect there may have been some confusion between John Matthew (a Scotsman) and Andrew Hill (an American)...

http://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/entri ... _redwoods/

I lived in San Jose from '69 to '89 and went to college at UCSC...those are some magnificent trees indeed and (I know this sounds confrontational, but just sayin'...) they owe their present existence to a native born American, not a Scotsman....

Mike, the Scotsman to whom I refer was of course John Muir. (check him out on Wikipedia) . Maybe I should have spelled his name out earlier, but I assumed that everybody would have known immediately to whom I was referring.

He was born in Dunbar, in Scotland, although his family did in fact emigrate to the States when he was quite young.

Kinda funny when back in the day all that was needed to emigrate to the States was a way to get there, but then as soon as the Chinese showed up they really tightened up.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

alrighty...I stand totally corrected...guess I'm feeling a bit nationalistic what with the goings on concerning Piers Morgan lately

Who?

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic