***** Guitar Project Jigs, Tools & Techniques Online Resources Archives OLF Video Page Library of plans MP3 Library Inlay Class
Offical Luthiers Forum





And our community proudly sponsored by:

RC Tonewoods | Stewart MacDonald | LuthiersForum
TasmanianTonewoods | OLF | OLF MERCH
Luthier Suppliers | Pacific Coast Woods | ELEVATE
OLF X | Tasmanian Acoustic Tonewood | Luthiers Forum Store!
Luthiers Forum | OLF Facebook | AVAIL SPACE
OLF | Alaska Specialty Woods | A.Hix Tonewood
Duke of Pearl | Birkonium CNC | Space




Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Tue Jul 29, 2025 6:10 pm


Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 3
  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Robert Lak
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:10 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 356
Location: Massachusetts
First name: Rob
Last Name: Lak
State: Massachusetts
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Let’s say for some odd reason i really didn't want to cut the slots in the fingerboard and that i had some defective fretwire that was missing the tangs... Is there any reason that I couldn’t just epoxy them into place on the fretboard? The only things that I can come up with are:

Positioning them and holding them in place until they cured might be a bit testy.

Epoxy squeeze-out clean up might be messy?

There might be some issue with fret replacement... tear-out of the fretboard?

Without really knowing anything about epoxy, they should be fairly permanent and it would "Work"?
Top
 Profile  
 
meddlingfool
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:03 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7547
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I had a fella wanted to 1\4 tone a classical. We used CA and it held fine...
Top
 Profile  
 
theguitarwhisperer
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:11 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2561
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
That's how some Parker's are done.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!
Top
 Profile  
 
wbergman
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:30 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 1583
Location: United States
I've had epoxy release from wood even though I thought it was well prepared. But I know nothing.
Top
 Profile  
 
RusRob
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:12 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:34 pm
Posts: 1097
First name: Bob
Last Name: Russell
State: Michigan USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
I think you pretty much answered your own question... idunno

Cheers,
Bob
Top
 Profile  
 
mkellyvrod
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:44 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:10 am
Posts: 522
First name: Martin
Last Name: Kelly
City: Tampa
State: FL
Zip/Postal Code: 33634
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Sounds possible - what kind of defective fretwire are you thinking about?
Top
 Profile  
 
Jim Watts
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:58 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am
Posts: 2997
Location: United States
I've seen round stainless steel rod epoxied in half round grooves before for frets, so yeah, it should work.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com
Top
 Profile  
 
Robert Lak
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:32 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 356
Location: Massachusetts
First name: Rob
Last Name: Lak
State: Massachusetts
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Well, i had me this idea... but before i do tell i want to try it out first. Knowing the speed at which i work it could be years! Eat Drink

It's good to know that it so far it might not be completely laughable.
Top
 Profile  
 
Clay S.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:50 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
Wood moves according to changes in humidity, metal moves according to changes in temperature. Going from hot /dry to cold/wet conditions may break the bond of a ridged glue like epoxy. 100 % silicone (aquarium sealant)might be a better choice. Another thing to consider would be using a phenolic material, like Richlite, that shouldn't move according to humidity changes.
I've thought about using the stainless steel inserts that stiffen wiper blades as fretting material. I've even collected a few. They are tall enough to be set in a groove, but rather thin and unbarbed, so would probably need to be glued in. Thinking about it is as far as I've come also. [:Y:]
Top
 Profile  
 
GustavBuhund
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:30 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:05 am
Posts: 56
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Two words: Fretless neck
Top
 Profile  
 
Robert Lak
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:39 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 356
Location: Massachusetts
First name: Rob
Last Name: Lak
State: Massachusetts
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
"Two words: Fretless neck"

Maybe. Then again mabe too radical for me... a low level player. I'll have to do some youtube searches to see if that interests me.
Top
 Profile  
 
jshelton
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:57 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 380
First name: john
Last Name: shelton
City: Alsea
State: Oregon
Zip/Postal Code: 97324
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Jim Watts wrote:
I've seen round stainless steel rod epoxied in half round grooves before for frets, so yeah, it should work.

I bet that was a Richard Schneider guitar.


These users thanked the author jshelton for the post: Ken Jones (Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:31 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
RusRob
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:10 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:34 pm
Posts: 1097
First name: Bob
Last Name: Russell
State: Michigan USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
If you are looking for an alternative to metal frets you could look at either bone or shell. I have seen some vintage 1800's parlor guitars with ivory frets and bone would be a good replacement. They would not move with heat or humidity and would be pretty easy to glue on with CA glue. It would give your guitar a distinctive look if anything else. As long as you were not doing a lot of bends when you play it would probably wear pretty well.

Just an idea if you didn't want the problems associated with metal moving different then the wood.

Cheers,
Bob
Top
 Profile  
 
weslewis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:21 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:40 am
Posts: 764
First name: wes
Last Name: Lewis
City: Garland
State: Tx.
Zip/Postal Code: 75044
Focus: Build
Why?? idunno idunno

_________________
MK5acoustics.com
Top
 Profile  
 
Robert Lak
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:11 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 356
Location: Massachusetts
First name: Rob
Last Name: Lak
State: Massachusetts
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
RusRob wrote:
Just an idea if you didn't want the problems associated with metal moving different then the wood.


Nice guess but nope.
Top
 Profile  
 
Robert Lak
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:15 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 356
Location: Massachusetts
First name: Rob
Last Name: Lak
State: Massachusetts
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Why? Because!

Let's just say i had an ineresting idea and iI am not aware that anyone has tried it. Matter of fact, i should have googled it before now... I'm going to do that right now and see.... Nope... nada! bliss
Top
 Profile  
 
RusRob
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:14 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:34 pm
Posts: 1097
First name: Bob
Last Name: Russell
State: Michigan USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Robert Lak wrote:
RusRob wrote:
Just an idea if you didn't want the problems associated with metal moving different then the wood.


Nice guess but nope.



It isn't a guess. There were guitars fretted in Ivory in the 1800's.

A quote from the "Early Romantic Guitar Information Home Page"

Quote:
One issue ... is the wear characteristic. Nickel steel frets found on modern instruments turn copper and gut strings into tattered remnants very soon. On the terz guitars I made I went to great lengths to have brass frets. I got some brass rods from the hobby store, about 2 or 3 mm in diameter, had a jeweler put them through a band press (which every jeweler has) to fit into a pre-cut slot, made with a hand saw which I use only for that purpose, specially sharpened and set. Then the frets are leveled, rounded and polished. They stand up from the fingerboard only 1 mm! The lowness of the fretting and the low action (Panormo and Terz) make the guitar ultra-responsive and more like the lute or tied frets on a period guitar, which have frets about .8 or .7 mm high. This changes the whole character. The wear problem is much reduced since brass is quite soft. I have my Panormo fretted in ivory, probably the best material, salvaged from pianos. With all these things in place you will have a new experience of fretting. More articulate. Less work to do. Better vibrato. Less string wear and intonation problems. But, less tension and softer."



Robert Lak wrote:
Why? Because!

Let's just say i had an ineresting idea and iI am not aware that anyone has tried it. Matter of fact, i should have googled it before now... I'm going to do that right now and see.... Nope... nada! bliss


I am not sure what you are dancing about, If it is that you couldn't find any reference to using Ivory for frets or if you couldn't find anything about gluing frets on but both have been done. So you didn't invent a new way of fretting an instrument.


Frankly I think you would be making a mistake by trying to glue frets on, Ivory, Bone or metal.

There is a good reason frets are inserted into slots, it has been done for a very long time with excellent results.
Most other ways have proven to be inferior. And if you do it I am sure you will find out why it isn't a great idea.

Bob
Top
 Profile  
 
Robert Lak
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:57 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 356
Location: Massachusetts
First name: Rob
Last Name: Lak
State: Massachusetts
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
"If it is that you couldn't find any reference to using Ivory for frets or if you couldn't find anything about gluing frets on but both have been done. So you didn't invent a new way of fretting an instrument."

Neither.

Not interested in ivory frets and knew that frets had been glued on, just wasn't sure how well they might hold on. The only thing i haven't heard here yet is whether they would be a pain to replace, if epoxy breaks easily enough or would one tend to ruin the fretboard trying to get them off..
Top
 Profile  
 
Clay S.
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:08 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
Heating the fret with a soldering iron should soften the epoxy to make removal fairly easy.
Top
 Profile  
 
Glen H
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:43 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:17 am
Posts: 1031
Location: United States
City: Tyler
State: Texas
Robert Lak wrote:
The only thing i haven't heard here yet is whether they would be a pain to replace, if epoxy breaks easily enough or would one tend to ruin the fretboard trying to get them off..



Ok, they would be a pain to replace. And a pain to install this way in the first place.
Top
 Profile  
 
ZekeM
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:50 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:52 am
Posts: 1388
First name: Zeke
Last Name: McKee
City: Goodlettsville
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37070
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Let's think about it....

Benefits:none
Disadvantages:many

....and we have come to the conclusion that gluing frets on is not worth the trouble.
Top
 Profile  
 
RusRob
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:25 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:34 pm
Posts: 1097
First name: Bob
Last Name: Russell
State: Michigan USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Robert Lak wrote:
"If it is that you couldn't find any reference to using Ivory for frets or if you couldn't find anything about gluing frets on but both have been done. So you didn't invent a new way of fretting an instrument."

Neither.

Not interested in ivory frets and knew that frets had been glued on, just wasn't sure how well they might hold on. The only thing i haven't heard here yet is whether they would be a pain to replace, if epoxy breaks easily enough or would one tend to ruin the fretboard trying to get them off..


As I said in my first post.

I think you answered your own question in the opening statement to this thread.

Quote:
Positioning them and holding them in place until they cured might be a bit testy.


YES... Nearly impossible...

Quote:
Epoxy squeeze-out clean up might be messy?


YES...

Quote:
There might be some issue with fret replacement... tear-out of the fretboard?


YES Most Definitely

Quote:
Without really knowing anything about epoxy, they should be fairly permanent and it would "Work"?


YES... Epoxy has excellent holding power and when your frets come of (AND THEY WILL) it will rip out big chunks of your fretboard.


So my question is:

Why would you even consider doing this?

Bob
Top
 Profile  
 
Robert Lak
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:20 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:34 am
Posts: 356
Location: Massachusetts
First name: Rob
Last Name: Lak
State: Massachusetts
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
"Why would you even consider doing this?"

It's a personality defect. I like trying odd things. It's what led me to start building my own guitar rather than just buying one *sigh* 6 years ago.

"Benefits:none
Disadvantages:many

....and we have come to the conclusion that gluing frets on is not worth the trouble."

True... unless there IS a reason... even if the reason is just to be a bit creative, out-of-the-box or pain-in-the-a$$ (choose one).
Top
 Profile  
 
Joe Sallis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:56 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:29 am
Posts: 502
First name: joseph
Last Name: sallis
City: newcastle-upon-tyne
State: tyne and wear
Zip/Postal Code: ne46xe
Country: UK
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
My guess is that you want the frets to go in a wiggly line across the fret board in an attempt to compensate each string differently.

_________________
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.
Top
 Profile  
 
ZekeM
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:47 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:52 am
Posts: 1388
First name: Zeke
Last Name: McKee
City: Goodlettsville
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37070
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Joe Sallis wrote:
My guess is that you want the frets to go in a wiggly line across the fret board in an attempt to compensate each string differently.

Like this?Image
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 3
  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com