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Seems I have seen both pop up when searching Royal-Lac

Love this line from that site: "This unique Hardened Shellac creates a film with a high resistance to heat, water and alcohol, yet it is used in exactly the same was as any normal shellac. It can be applied with a rubber as French polish, brushed, sprayed and dipped."

I spirited off Royal Lac after a 30 day cure. FWIW it behaved just like regular shellac. The tiny amount of alcohol on the rubber sufficiently softened the microscopically thin top layer to allow a rubbed polish. To me that implies the ability to burn in. I don't know what resin Vijay has added, nor do I know how long they take to fully set. Thirty day cure may mean nothing, but I know I couldn't try to put a few drops of water on a pad and try to rub polish EM6000 thirty days later.
Whether the added resins actually protect the guitar for decades and decades . . .


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This is interesting -- sort of explains how EM6000 works, water is not the solvent but merely a carrier there are two solvents (co-solvents glycol compounds) listed but they do not dissolve the acrylic but make the pre-cured particles sticky. This is off a finishing forum -- not the Target forum.

SECTION III COMPOSITION INFORMATION
INGREDIENT
Approx. Wt%
SARA-313
CAS#
Acrylic Copolymer Resin
30 max
N/A
63744-68-3
Dipropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether
05 max
N/A
34590-94-2
Propylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether
05 max
N/A
107-98-2
Water
60 max
N/A
7732-18-5

Please note that the Approximate Weight Percentage of each component given totals 100%; in other words, according to the manufacturer what you see is what you get…it is all you get. This “lacquer” is composed of Acrylic resin, Glycol Ether and water. As an aside, it takes a real stretch of the English language to call this stuff lacquer; but, in the wonderful world of finishing, marketing is everything. The more important point here is that you can examine the composition of any water-borne finish and you will find the same family of ingredients. As covered in the article above, micro droplets of pre-cured acrylic resin are combined with glycol ether to soften the outer shell of the droplets. This mixture is then added to water. Since glycol ether is compatible with water the pre-cured softened droplets of acrylic disperse evenly in the water carrier. When applied the water evaporates faster than the glycol ether. As the water evaporates, the pre-cured droplets of softened acrylic come together (they coalesce). When these pre-cured droplets of finish touch, they stick together. When the glycol ether subsequently evaporated the finish film is complete. Nothing cures; the finish is already cured. A day or two, three at the most, of “drying” is plenty of time for all of the glycol ether to evaporate. At that point the finish is as hard as it is going to get.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Interesting, I have found that after about 5 days the EM6000 finish sands dry and buffs easily. I can also see why when spraying a thin coat it can look almost powdery as opposed to a wet looking coat. But moments later there is a nice level looking coat. The water evaporates and allows the suspended finish to pull together.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Now that's an option I'd like to know more about. Wonder why epoxy is a key "trick"? (I use West 105/207 on body, but LMII acrylic paste on necks). Sounds like a very workable alternative and readily available in Canada. Anyone else have experience to share with Enduro-Var?


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With any finishing system I have tried out, step one was to make sure all the coating chemicals are compatible ---- sealer, pore filler topcoat etc.

For the Endro- Varnish this warning is posted numerous places in their marketing snippets:

Enduro-Var ADHERES WELL only over WATER STAINS, DYE STAINS, and RAW WOOD. It will adhere over an oil stain ONLY IF the stain is completely dry (minimum 4 days drying). Use Enduro-Var over any other surfaces at your own risk.


That does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. $.02

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Hi Tim, I've used it and like it a lot, see this post http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43510&p=574924&hilit=+enduro#p574924
I have a few posts in the thread, both pages.
Laurent Brondel uses it on his Essentials range, e.g. http://lblutherie.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/the-essential-2c-german-spruce-wenge.html
Found another thread recently on Mandolin forum, http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?102732-Enduro-var-my-new-refinish-experience with a couple or three instruments (pics and comments) finished with it.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Terence,

I talked to John Greven last year at the Portland show and he was still using waterborne.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I just noticed the note sent by John Greven in regards to Enduro-Var...That's a platinum seal of approval fo me!!

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

I see where he uses it over epoxy. Wonder if it works over z-poxy??

Can't say for sure, when I used it I put a lick of shellac over the z-poxy and that was fine, still is.
The wood whisperer didn't mention any problems http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/the-chest-of-drawers-finished/

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Colin, I'm confused. And I've seen this before. Why put shellac over epoxy?

My approach has become 3 coats of z-poxy, then scrape back almost to wood. Then a wash coat of thin z-poxy. No sanding. Don't want to open new pores. What I do it understand is what shellac buys you?

Because I could not find any information about the adhesion of enduro-var to z-poxy and didn't want to faff about with test panels.
I knew shellac adheres well to z-poxy (but not the reverse) and shellac has a well-earned reputation for adhering well to just about any finish, including (most) waterbornes.
Also, being a waterborne, Enduro-Var will not "pop" the grain, and I did want to bring out the bearclaw on the top.
Hence the shellac - no sanding, just wiped a couple of coats of 1lb cut on with a paper towel, let it dry (edit - scuffed the shine off with grey Scotchbrite), went to spaying lacquer.
Horrifying isn't it?
Sorry about the pic, it was a quite a dull day.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Ok. Got it. U did that primarily for the top. My confusion also stemmed from a notice on the website for Enduro-Var, to not use sealers or shellac. But then they say, if u need shellac, keep it light. Anyways, I'm going to use a very light coat of West Epoxy, 105/207 on the top. Back and sides are z-poxy. And I have settled on Enduro-Var. Looked at number of bodies under that finish. Looked great.

Mike, as you're going with the enduro-var I thought you might like to see this.
Following these recent posts on waterborne lacquers, I was looking at John Greven's site over my first cup of coffee the other day and came across this. Just thought I would share it as I didn't know him.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x9Yxna7pE4[/youtube]
I don't know your tastes musically, but for me at least, that was a really nice way to wake up.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I tried Endura Var recently on a poplar solid body. I applied General's water base white wash stain + a few drops of Mixol Ochre.

I brushed Endura Var on. For a brushed on application, it flowed out very well, but still required more leveling than a spray application would. Despite a lot of sanding, I can see no witness lines.

I leveled and polished a week after the last coat. Way too soon. The finish has shrunk back into the grain.

I will try it again, but give it a good month before block sanding and polishing

Hi pullshocks, you say the finish sunk back into the grain.
As poplar doesn't need pore filling, I assume that this means what seems to be a "rippled" look to the finish from the photo.
Assuming you went to the water wash stain as mentioned and then sprayed, could it have had something to do with prep of the wood or grain raising with the water based?
Did you block sand, raising the the grain prior to sanding with each grit prior to finishing?
Did you use anything to seal the wood prior to finishing?
It's just it seemed to me that for the finish to shrink back into the grain, there would have to be some grain there.
Either left from preparation or caused by the water content of the finishing products.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Thanks Colin. That was nice. I've read enough here to go ahead and give it a try. I do like the look of it.

Sent this brief inquiry to General Finishes over the weekend. I suspect some won't like their answer.


Receive Product Update Emails:

What is the purpose of this request?

Compatibility -- Can Enduro WB varnish be applied over Zpoxy pore filler? Can it be applied over shellac? What is the recommended product to fill pores in East Indian Rosewood?

Thank you, Ken

Reply

Tom Monahan Today at 12:58 PM
To
kencierp@yahoo.com

Enduro Var is NOT compatible with shellac. You will have adhesion failure. It can be used over epoxy. AS pore fillers go Timbermate or Color Tone from Stew-Mac works fine with our products.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Hi pullshocks, you say the finish sunk back into the grain.
As poplar doesn't need pore filling, I assume that this means what seems to be a "rippled" look to the finish from the photo.
Assuming you went to the water wash stain as mentioned and then sprayed, could it have had something to do with prep of the wood or grain raising with the water based?
Did you block sand, raising the the grain prior to sanding with each grit prior to finishing?
Did you use anything to seal the wood prior to finishing?
It's just it seemed to me that for the finish to shrink back into the grain, there would have to be some grain there.
Either left from preparation or caused by the water content of the finishing products.[/quote]

Let me try again

No witness lines visible. If the finish were susceptible to witness lines I woul have expected to see them here, with uneven coats and extensive sanding. This is a real plus.

Shrinkage did happen over a period of several weeks. Not a criticism of the material. I all use it again, but will wait a month before block sanding and polishing. Simiilar to what most do wth nitrocellulose laquer. It may be more precise to say it shrank back to the remaining texture of the very soft early wood after sanding to 320, raising the grain, and resanding with 320. Possibly finer grits and different sanding methods would reduce the texture and the slight hollowing of the early wood that Produced the slight waviness noticed by Colin.
But the point is the finish shrank enough for the texture to telegraph through.
Just reporting my experience. Your results may be different

Thanks for that info Ken.
I find that curious, mine was still holding up after a year when I sold it, and the owner has been in touch since and indicated no problems after another 18 months. (He only called me to check how to change strings with the locking tuners.)
I wonder.
I used about 5-10% ethyl alcohol (everclear) in the Enduro-Var - perhaps that made a difference?
That was done in attempt to ensure each coat "bites" into the previous one. (John Greven in LMI's instructions for KTM9 waterbourne recommend thinning KTM with 1 TBS of denatured alcohol per cup of finish to improve the film deposition when spraying)
Could that have helped the adhesion of the Enduro-Var to shellac?
Also, the shellac I used was dewaxed, made it up myself. Could they have been talking about ordinary shellac not dewaxed?
I could easily understand a waterborne finish not adhering to shellac if it was not dewaxed.
Cant be sure if I used the alcohol in the first 2 coats though, actually pretty sure I didn't, definitely used it in the later coats.
I would have expected adhesion failure to show long before 2 1/2 years?
Got to start taking proper notes.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

If you read their directions on the site, it clearly mentions shellac as bad. Then it says this:

Can I use shellac under the Enduro-Var? No, if you need to lock in dye, use only one light coat, dewaxed, 1# cut, and sand before applying for adherence.

To me, that is a confusing statement. And from John Greven: " I do not use epoxy on tops, only a thin coat of shellac to close the fibers for the finish to sit on. I don't want the Enduro soaking into the spruce."

So, I'm guessing there is an issue with shellac if it is not sanded well back.

Mike

Or waxed vs de-waxed.

Yeah. My thoughts too. Maybe its just easier to tell folks to not use shellac. Better CYA coverage.

Yup! Definitely CYA.
I sent a query to GF, just to ask for a few more details as I have a guitar out I was concerned about.
Got a reply next day. Great customer support.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.