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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:41 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
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I've been doing all rosewood veneer laminated sides using3 layers of 0,024 inch thick matched veneers. The finished thickness is a little over 0,070 inches. They don't turn out particularly heavy and the guitars sound about the same as the solid wood guitars I build.
There are so many different ways to do things that results can vary widely. Some of the things I like to do (like drying the veneers just before laminating) other people don't seem to find necessary. I use clamps for laminating rather than vacuum and let the epoxy cure several days before removing them from the clamps.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:43 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
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Location: Alexandria MN
Interesting, and makes sense. I use cauls and clamps too with unibond 800. Do you thin them with the thickness sander and a carrier board or buy the Rosewood as a veneer.

Any issues with sanding through layers when leveling sides using veneers that thin?

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:45 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hi Terence,
A number of years ago I bought "offcuts" and "overages" - scraps from a person who had scrounged them from a company that made laminated panels for board rooms and such. They are the left over flitch matched veneers. They are old veneers and some are cut thicker than others.
I reassemble them in the same order they were cut. If I get too aggressive sanding them the underlying layer has the same grain and using clear epoxy resin as the glue allows sand throughs to disappear under finish. As I have gotten better at laminating sand throughs are almost a thing of the past. I have been laminating back and side sets for about 20 years and had a few failures in the beginning. Laminating allows me to make a BRW back and side set for less than $100 that behaves much like solid wood.


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These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: Terence Kennedy (Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:14 pm)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:54 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Hi Terence,
I was up in the shop today and decided to do a "sand through" on a scrap offcut from a laminated BRW back to show what effect it would have on the finished instrument. It hit it with a quick coat of shellac and photographed it wet to make it more like a polished surface. I also stumbled on an old photo of some sand through on a kingwood guitar and will include that also.
I miked some of the side layups I haven't built with - they have probably been laying around for over a year - laminated sides hold their shape incredibly well. They miked out at 0.075 to 0.095 inches before doing any sanding.
With the second picture I tried to show the edge of the scrap so you can kind of gage where the sand thoughs might be.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:26 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
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Location: Alexandria MN
Thanks!

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:51 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 2992
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
That's nice looking veneer, Clay.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:28 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Hi Barry,
When I bought the veneer it was pretty and cheap, so I bought more than I will use at this point. It takes about 17-20 sq ft to laminate a back and side set so I probably have 100 sets worth of BRW, plus a bunch of other veneer species, and of course solid wood sets, and boards to be resawn. gaah laughing6-hehe
I noticed the price of BRW veneer has gotten somewhat unreasonable, but I did notice one BIN auction on eBay that if I were in the market might not be a bad deal - with careful laminating you might get a couple of side sets for a reasonable price:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/295377679377?h ... YRiBaF1CCO
Disclaimer:
I have no affiliation with that auction and do not know the seller.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:43 pm 
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First name: Bob
Last Name: Russell
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@Clay S.

Clay, Do you have a link to your process? I would like to try and laminate sides at some point but I don't have a bender, (I use a hot pipe bender I made) or a vacuum system so I would be interested in seeing how you do yours.

I don't want to hijack this thread so if you have a link or if you prefer to PM me that would be fine.

Thanks,
Bob


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:47 pm 
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No objections to any posts on this thread.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:58 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Location: Hopkinton, MA
First name: Robert
Last Name: Ionta
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RusRob wrote:
@Clay S.

Clay, Do you have a link to your process? I would like to try and laminate sides at some point but I don't have a bender, (I use a hot pipe bender I made) or a vacuum system so I would be interested in seeing how you do yours.

I don't want to hijack this thread so if you have a link or if you prefer to PM me that would be fine.

Thanks,
Bob

I recently viewed some videos of a lamination process with a mold and caul by luthier JS Bogdanovic. You might find it informative. He sells the molds for some classical shapes, I think.

https://www.jsbguitars.com

I have no affiliation other than having viewed the videos.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:14 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Clay, I doubt you remember but many years ago I bought a few Engelman tops from you. We had been talking about your veneer process and you included in the box an off-cut from the waist area of one of your rosewood backs as an example. That laminated offcut ended up being just the right thickness for a shim I use for one of my operations and I am still using it to this day. I call it my Clay shim.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:08 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
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Thank you Colin for no objections to the unintended high jack of the thread - one question lead to another. I'm glad you don't mind the "drift" in the content many of the threads seem to have, so I will answer Bob's question here.
My process is relatively simple - the same block form I use to bend sides with using a heat blanket, I use as a laminating form. I use kerfkore as the clamping caul. I reduce the height of it where i need a tighter bend (waist).
One thing I have found helpful when laminating veneers is to first drive out as much moisture from them using heat just prior to the glue up. This seems to give them more stability. I use West System epoxy with the special clear hardener. I use wax paper as a release agent so I don't glue the veneer to the forms. I allow the epoxy to cure several days before removing the sides from the form. Sometimes I will laminate both sides at the same time by stacking one side on top of the other with a smooth piece of formica between them (as well as the wax paper). The slight difference in size is not noticeable in the finished instrument. I have also made laminating forms by bending Corian over the block form using the heat blanket. Someone (Terence?) drilled holes in their form for clamps, which might be a good improvement rather than propping up the base of the form as I show.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:25 am 
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First name: colin
Last Name: north
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Interesting Clay, thanks for that.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:44 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:43 am
Posts: 310
Location: N.B. Canada
I am in the process of building two guitars using double sides and solid linings. Been using Driftwood Guitar's Youtube series "Building a 3000 Year Old Guitar as a guide.
The rim is exceptionally stiff and the adi top on my 000 taps crazy loud. Look forward to seeing what its sounds like after it's finished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1MYMqV ... 5XT1UQGJzK

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:58 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3197
Location: Alexandria MN
Here's my rig. I made the cauls by getting close with the spindle sander and then covering them with Behlens Rock Hard putty and clamping them against the form using clear packing tape to keep them from sticking. Clean up the squeeze out after dry on the belt sander. I'll sometimes cover them with a thin layer of gasket cork. Seems to work well for me but just one of many things that work. Form is covered in packing tape as well during the lamination process.

ImageIMG_1096 by Terence Kennedy, on Flickr

ImageIMG_1097 by Terence Kennedy, on Flickr

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