Official Luthiers Forum!

A few weeks ago, I strung for the first time a 000 12 fret that I put together with parts from John Hall and Stewmac. I recently retired from building custom furniture for 30 years out of my own shop, and this is a reward to myself, my first. The whole project went really well, jigs, assembly, finishing and set up. The knowledge and tips from this forum and some of the other guitar forums is priceless. But, there's a problem. The D and A strings make a 'sizzle' sound when strummed or picked. It's almost like static behind the guitar's voice, coming from the bridge area, to my ear. I took it to a respected acoustic shop here in Baltimore, said the build looked great, but they were puzzled too. I've poked around the braces and bridge plate with feeler gauges the best I could, looking for gaps or something loose. bridge pin holes are properly tapered, strings are seated. I've tried a different bone saddle, different strings, I even made an ebony saddle for it today and tried it. No change. I'm grateful for the help and ideas. Thanks.

Sometimes those sounds don’t come from where they sound like they come from. My first suggestion is to make sure the machine head washers are tight. Then I’d make a slight change to the truss rod. It’s also possible that what you’re hearing is from the nut. Do the strings make that noise when fretted as well?

Also it can be helpful to remove the strings, pins, and saddle, and just bonk away all over to see if you can get a snare drum like sound, that can help identify if something’s come loose…

Yes, the noise is there when fretted, with or without a capo. And during one of the string changes I shook the guitar and tapped and knocked around. Nothing obvious..but thanks. And keep those ideas coming.

if it has a zitarish sound you may have the top of the saddle misshaped . if there is a back vibration that is a bit harder to discern you may need to call me you have my number

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Does it sound like a Sitar? Does the saddle have a flat spot on the offending strings?

M

If you don't have enough "break angle" behind the saddle the strings can make a sitarish sound. Try pressing down the strings between the saddle and bridge pins.

I've been wondering about the saddle. I tried to make the top of the saddle a perfect half round. So there should be more relief on one side than the other?

Yep what John said if the top of the saddle is too flat it can do that. And what Clay said not enough break angle. Ed, Meddling is right too sometimes noises at the bridge are really caused elsewhere and the bridge only amplifies it to our attention.

We need to know the height of the strings over the 12th fret too and how straight or how much relief is in the instrument. Pictures always help too.

Any respected shop should be able to figure this out in a minute or less with the guitar present.

Replacing the offending string is always a part of elimination on these things too and make sure it is seated on the bridge plate correctly too inside the box since this is the first time out with strings.

Regarding relief if you did not build or mill proper relief in when you built it it is what it is and we have to live with it. That's how most guitars are made with no effort expended on more relief on the bass side and less on the treble side which is the goal. It does not have to be this way and can still pay OK if the opposite is true so no worries especially if this is an early guitar for you.

But for very low action the fret plane has to be near perfect and more relief is desirable on the bass side and less on the treble side. Some high end makers do build this in with Collings and Sawdowsky being two of them. I did it too and anyone who installs the board on the neck, the neck on the guitar and THEN frets the guitar with the neck on the body has the opportunity to do this requirement for superb fret work. I recommend it.

If it sizzles on fretted notes it's not the nut so we can rule that out. My guess is what John said the top of the saddle has a flat spot or what Clay said not enough break angle so post some pics here of the bridge and saddle, action at the 12 and any shots you can get of the fret plane please?

Thanks and welcome to the OLF Don I don't think I have ever welcomed you before.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Thanks for the help, Hesh. Here's a few shots of the bridge and saddle. The relief is .007 at the 6th fret and the action at the 12th fret is approximately 5/64" for the treble E and 7/64" for the bass E. And yes, the sizzle or static is there, fretted or open, even with a capo. I put more relief on the back side of the saddle, this afternoon, being careful there were no flat spots, no help. And thanks for the welcome . Dan
ps. sorry for the size of the photos. I'm new at this..

I once had a buzz when I plucked an A or an F# on any string where the notes could be fretted. And, it happened on different guitars. It turned out it was a parts drawer under the work table with brass washers in it. Removed the drawer, the noise went away. Chasing these sounds down can be very hard.

I might suggest making a phony saddle with the break edge at the very front of the saddle slot, being sure to angle the top of the saddle downward to the rear to make sure the strings touch the entire top of the saddle. A quick ebony one would do. Just to rule out saddle shape as the cause…

Does this guitar have a pickup?

From my reading of the thread, you’ve already tried different saddles, different strings, and the offending noise occurs with and without a capo. That suggests the nut and/or saddle are not involved — too bad, ‘cause those are easily addressed.
I don’t think anyone has suggested the truss rod, but they can be a problem area if we don’t take steps to eliminate rattles and sympathetic noises. You might try tightening or loosening the truss rod to see if changing the tension changes the behaviour. Don’t worry about deviating from an ideal setup, your objective is to find out if the truss rod is in play.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yep mess with the truss rod. Sometimes just tapping the neck will give a rattle if that’s what it is.. I had a couple of my early guitars with a noise like yours and it was the truss rod.

I fixed it with a tip from Frank Ford, injecting diluted rubber cement into the truss rod slot via small holes in the fretboard.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

OK thanks Dan for the excellent pics and big is good, I'm old....

The relief at 0.007" you did not say if that is the treble side or the bass side. So what I would suggest is two things to start and I don't agree that we have eliminated the saddle, nut yes, saddle no I can't see from the pics for sure, for sure if there is not a flat spot or not enough break from the saddle on the forward curve away from the saddle top and I speak of the forward edge of the saddle top not the back edge which is in question too.

1) Capo in the first three fret area, your pick. Slack strings, pull pins and then examine the fit of each pin with a string in the pic some of the pins look high to me. When we have a new guitar we have to slot the bridge, top and plate for the strings. If the pins fit too tightly the string ball may not seat firmly on the bridge plate and this incomplete contact can rattle and buzz on a new instrument or an older instrument that the steward has upped the string gauge. So refit the pins the little band around them shown should not be in contact with the bridge but closer than I see in your pics hence the pins are not all the way seated and the string balls may not be in firm contact with the plate inside the box. The fact that you hear the noise on two strings suggests this is a process problem - the fitment of the pins perhaps.

2) Put the strings back in when you are sure they fit nicely and are seated nearly to the band around them. Pins should not need to be forced down they should easily fit completely. Tune to pitch, adjust the truss rod so that the side of the neck, treble or bass with the LEAST relief is very nearly straight. Take it to as little as 0.002" of relief and again I speak of the straighter side of the neck and this is always done tuned to pitch, truss rod adjusts. Measure action at the 12th for BOTH the treble side and the bass side. Remove and shim the saddle with any old thing including plastic cut from packaging material we just want to raise it for now and this is a temp shim. A shim 0.032" will raise action 1/64th inch. Shim the saddle to get the same action you had (good going on that by the way that is what I set a dread to with 13's in the shop for a flat picker with a moderate attack) to 5/64th treble side 7/64ths bass side.

What we have done here is straighten the neck as much as we can (I usually set my relief in this area anyway unless someone is ham handed heavy hitter) and that will also take any "body hump" which is a very common occurrence on early, small builder instruments, it will take the hump more out of play if it exists. A body hump is a rise in the fretboard at the body join and that is also where the strings lash out some of the furthest and a common place where if the action is too low for the amount of relief and if the hump is present there can be interference with the frets for vibrating strings.

3). One more thing to check for now and that is with the saddle removed draw a pencil line on the bottom and lightly sand the bottom on say your table saw table with 220 paper, something very flat until the line is gone. We want to make sure the saddle is flat on the bottom. Additionally the saddle should be able to be removed with minimal pulling and NOT tight in the slot. If it't tight in the slot it may not be completely seated and that can buzz too. On guitars with a pick-up under the saddle I like the saddle to be removable with only fingers but never, never rock back and forth. Without a pick-up my end nippers are used to remove the saddle but I don't want to have to pull very hard to do so.

So check saddle fit and how well the bottom of the saddle sits in the bottom of the saddle slot. Is this a commercially made bridge? Our shop might hit the bottom of the slot with our saddle mill to make sure that is flat too but you don't have this tool.

Do these things and see what results?

One last thing and that is shaping the top of a saddle.

I use the side of a pencil and color the entire top of my saddles and then I hit them with my favorite saddle file witch is a very old, pointed half round OOOO file. I file the saddle top until all the pencil is removed but there remains a thin pencil line not a thick line. A thick line is a flat spot a thin line is a peak which is what we want. We also of course want compensation so that thin line the High e is forward of the b, the G is forward of the d, a, low e, etc. Using a pencil you can eliminate any flat spot on the saddle top.

Dan sometimes we have to work on our hunches in this trade and what I have described we unaffectionately call "fishing with a net..." If it results in a fix and if you are unsure of what exactly was the offending thing that was corrected..... welcome to my world

Good luck and there is more when you get past this stuff.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Wanted to add you can check a truss rod by removing strings and tapping in various locations with your fingers on the neck with the instrument upright and very close to your ears. Tap and listen and if there is a rattle tighten the rod to engage it and repeat if there is still a rattle the rod is vibrating as Terry suggested.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

So did you ever figure it out?

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

No, not yet. I took the strings off, tapped and listened all over the body and neck, reshaped the top of the saddle, no help. I might order a saddle from Bob Colosi today, just to eliminate the possibility of a faulty saddle. I'll have some time later today and tomorrow to spend in the shop. I'll do a meticulous check for any high frets, though the few that have looked and listened to it don't think it sounds like a fret. I seem to have good clearance on the next fret when fretting a note or chord. If there's anyone in the area that might want to give it a listen, get in touch, I'll be by. And thanks again for the help.

Bummer, well good luck and keep us updated.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

OLFer Woodie is in that area and maybe she will weigh in on suggestions where you could take it to get some eyes on it. I'm sure that a pro would figure this out in a minute or two if we could have access to it. I had an electric yesterday that had a flat saddle. It was a Gibson with the Tune-e-matic bridge and individual saddles. The owner had taken out a file and filed his saddle slot attempting to lower his action. He filed it flat on top when it needs at least 3 - 4 degrees of break angle toward the tail piece. We found it at once, refiled the saddle, problem gone.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

It is difficult to get a good idea from a photo, but your bridge pins seems to me to be unusually close to the saddle, especially the E D A because of the slant of the saddle. I do not mean this is the cause but may be something to investigate.
Your saddle is far from the edge of the bridge. Remove it and make a dummy saddle that will rest on the bridge in front of the slot close to the edge. The intonation will not be right but if the buzz disappear then you have something to work on.
Just my 2 cents.

Good suggestions Alain. I noticed the pins too and the saddle is a good idea as well.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Sizzle noise? I've heard that before, but have no idea where it is from. I hear it sometimes plucking the cello, not bowing it. I've heard it on the archtop, but not lately, and a couple violins. I had a violin that had it, and I could hear that it was coming from the wing of the f hole. I could push it down, and it would stop.
The sound that I hear is a decay sound that rises as the note dies. It isn't part of the note itself; at least you don't hear it. It isn't loud, just strange.
I'll see if any of them are acting up now.

_________________
Why be normal?

I just checked. The noise on the cello is from the built in fine tuners on the tailpiece. On the "non playing" side of the string from the bridge. It doesn't always happen.

_________________
Why be normal?

Ok looking for a mystery buzz can be a challenge . I have found 2 main reasons for this. Once you eliminated the obvious you have to think what can make a buzz. 2 things you need to check for
A are the tuners tight ????
B when you glued the braces , did you glue every joint , by this I mean , if you butted a brace against something and didn't glue it that can cause a buzz. I found finger braces that were against the X brace and not glues. Also kerfed lining touching the neck block. So look inside close and see that you don't have a loose or poor fitted brace. One more thing
Tap on the top and back and listen closes. If you hear a slappy sound , you have something loose.

One thing that got me a long time ago was a ball end. The string was pinched into the pin hole and the ball end was vibrating. This one earned me an early morning beer.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it