Official Luthiers Forum!

I am looking at the plans for a 1930’s Stahl guitar. The pyramid bridge is shown with the pins drilled away from the saddle at a 10.5 degree angle. It would be much easier to jig up for 90 degrees but aside from being historically correct is their any benefit from drilling them this way?

Paul

I'd do it for the cool factor. At least once.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

In general, those bridges sloped so that the angled pins were perpendicular to the surface. Gibson also angled the pins in the early years. I see no structural or sonic advantage.

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John

I agree with John (and Chris has a good point about coolness ) and I wanted to add something.

Pins were not slotted back then. With the advent of pl*stics some fool.... said hey let's slot the bridge pins and this will eliminate the need for an operation when building the guitar that slots the bridge, top and bridge plate. As builders you know that this operation requires a bit of skill and is not exactly a mass production task.

So with the advent of cheap, mass produced slotted pl*stic bridge pins guitars also began being built differently without the bridges, tops and bridge plates slotted and that slightly higher paid worker who may have done this prior was SOL and had to go to work at Wendys instead....

Now along came the passage of time and a relatively new malady for acoustic guitars bridge plate damage from slotted pins permitting the string balls over time and with the addition of string tension and wear to wear their way up through the bridge plate and even the top damaging the instrument. Slotted pins permit the string balls to rest on the edge of the holes in the bridge plate and not firmly on the flat of the plate.

We've never seen an example of this plate damage happening to a guitar old enough to not have used slotted pins unless they were added later. It's very common to see damaged bridge plates these days and cheap, slotted pins are usually why.

So with all of this said.... pins had a slightly different job description back in the day and one of their assigned tasks was to be sure to push the string balls over to be firmly in touch with the bridge plate and not just the edge of the bridge plate as is the case with slotted pins.

I would not be keen to duplicate the angle either in it serves no purpose. I would be sure however to follow tradition and historical accuracy and use unslotted pins and instead slot the bridge, top and plate.

This goes for builders of contemporary guitars as well your "serviceability quotient" as I call it goes way up when you protect your clients investment by using unslotted pins. We can get into the weeds too about 5 degree vs. 3 degree as well but simply using unslotted is a huge improvement.

Lastly much of what we've seen in the evolution of how a guitar is constructed was the result of the need to mass produce and keep costs down. Companies also often built with what they had laying around, Gibson is an excellent example of this with lots of guitars produced by Gibson that can't exactly be called this or that in terms of which model and there was a thing called employee guitars too which is self explanatory.

Thanks for that Hesh. I guess that's why it's good to to read all posts. Barry recommended unslotted pins on my build, and I really never heard of them, I built an archtop, and a baroque, never had a flattop. So, slots are put in the tapered hole, large enough for the string to just fit? NOW unslotted makes sense! Now, why does no one make tiny bridge slot files?

If I was making a Stahl, I'd put them at an angle just because. Maybe unslotted.

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Why be normal?

Hi Ken - Yes the slots are filed into the bridge, top and bridge plate to match each string + several thou for clearance. I keep a set of dummy 12's and 13's that have the string ball and only 1/2 a foot of the string just to trial fit the unslotted pins AND a real string in the slot I just made. Typically I only make three different sot widths since a wider slot can work for a number of smaller stings.

I'm not at work but we made our own bridge slotting files that look like a nut slot file only 1/8" deep so they can fit all the way in the pin holes.

It's gone now but we had an 1860's Martin in the shop with slotted pins and the bridge plate looked like new.

Needle files, die sinker files, and tiny saw blades will work....

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

StewMac sells bridge slotting blades and files.

I just finished working on a Blueridge that had the pins angled in the bridge. They were not perpendicular to the bridge top and would not seat properly. I added slots which helped but I agree with the others that I don't see any advantage to angling the pins unless the bridge top is also angled. In any case, I would want the pin holes perpendicular to the top of the bridge.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I have a little hand holder for a sabre saw blade; grind it back at the business end so that it will fit in the hole. It cuts on the pull stroke, so you need to scribe the bridge on either side of the slot at the top to prevent chip-out.

Counter sink the pin holes before you cut the slots...

Is it far enough along in the thread to stir the pot and bring up the power jig saw method again?

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Thanks for your replies. I looked up the photo reference for that bridge and it wasn’t the most elegant I’ve seen.
I am going to aim for something a little more refined. +1 for the Sabre saw blade hand holder. I used an old xacto
blade handle to make a miniature saw.

Paul

when they see a pic, the uninitiated will surely drop a jaw! Lol Works great tho!

Pat

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Pat

Yep we use something similar too. We also use files to refine the shape of the slots and to round the top hump where the string changes directions headed for the tuners.

Wasn't it Mario who introduced us to this here about 15 years ago? Remember what he was suggesting to carve necks

Yep, it was Mario.


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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I like X-Acto #15 Keyhole sawblades.

And they double for making fret slots deeper or cleaning them out. Exactly 0.023" kerf.

Wobble them for thicker strings, or double them up or follow with a small rat tail file.

I bought dozens just in case they stop making them.

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Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

Didn't he use some sort of chainsaw attachment for an angle grinder? It looked terrifying! I remember him describing it as something like 'pretend you are petting a porcupine.'

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Stumpy Nubs nearly earned his stage name by using one of those chain saw discs. See the below link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xWHEWov8M

Yup, he used a Lancelot disc. Pretty darn capable tool with some practice. He is a pretty capable guy though. Jean Larivee claimed to be able to rough carve a neck with a drawknife in 45 seconds. It would be interesting to see Mario and Jean have a "carve off".

I remember a Youtube video quite a while back of Grit Laskin using a drawknife to shape a neck. Hogging off huge chunks of mahogany was frightening. I thought it was a practical joke like some of the Lee Valley joke videos. Grit is another luthier that started with Larrivee, so I guess that's where he learned it.

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Rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy

Darrel exactly he showed a pic of it here like Col. Kutrz tossed a severed head in Martin Sheen's lap and then walked away. The rest of us were in amazement that this chain saw looking doomsday devise could be used for something as...... delicate.... as Loofierism. Boy what an eyeopener that was and true too. Lots of way to skin the OM.

Ha! I use some of his methods but not that one. I do use a Kutzall disc at times for hogging wood out of the inside of archtop backs and never did that until building two 20" bass archtops. Hand carving got old real fast.

I know of a arch top builder here in Lawrence Ks that uses a Lancelot On an angle grinder to rough out tops and backs. He was surprised when I said I was afraid to try that and I'm not in that big of a hurry. He invited me to stop by and watch. Something in the back of my mind tells me I'm not as good with power tools as some people.

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

I've used a drill press planer to rough out arches for decades. You lay out a contour map of the surface and use the tool to remove anything that sticks up too far. It's more controlled than a Lancelot, and slower, but is, perhaps, safer (although I have students who might disagree). I can rough in the outside arches for the top and back of a guitar pretty well in an afternoon this way.