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Isn't my license on the bumper?

His name is Raaaalph, man.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Abuse versus ‘brusquely offered guidance’ – an example.

At about the three-year mark into a very intense repair apprenticeship, I was told to ‘handle’ a 1962 D-18 project so that Messrs. Morelli and Stock could get on with a couple of vintage restoration jobs.

The D-18 came down from a State College, PA original owner, and had been subject to one of the most ham-handed reset/refret/nut/saddle efforts I had seen up to that point in my time at Greenridge. The repair person who had botched the previous reset was apparently a brass and woodwind specialist, but did not feel constrained to ruin just trombones and flutes. The quote to the customer was just shy of $2K, with much of that involving the undoing the poor workmanship on the reset and the horrible fretwork. I was directed to come up with a work plan and brief it to both gentlemen based on my estimate.

All went well until I briefed the refret part of the work.

Me: This is the third refret per the owner on the original rosewood board, so I will pull the frets, repair the board as needed, then level, and final prep for refret. I plan on correcting the excessive relief of .016” with .0245 tang frets in 3, 5, 7, and 9, with .0225 in the rest of 1-14 and .0205 in the extension. I can add .0235, .0245, and crimpled .0245 frets as needed to get to my target of .004 under load. The owner runs EJ-16 strings and fingerpicks/light strummer for mostly folk accompaniment, so no heavier strings are likely to be used.

FM: What was the relief under tension and without?

Me: 0.016” and 0.011”

FM: On a T bar neck?

Me: Yes

FM: What is this… like the tenth reset you’ve done on a T-bar?

Me: (Thinking) yeah…

FM: How often have you seen that much relief on a board that got refretted less than a year ago?

Me: Well, that’s why I plan to get some compression in the 3, 5, 7, and 9, and stiffen things up.

FM: Customer said he thought relief was really high when he got it back from that <deleted>, right?

TS: Enough… way past babysitting you on this one. Get the neck pulled, body work done and prepped, neck trimmed and prepped to go back on, and then tell us why your plan for the refret is not going to work. If you want to bug people online about it, go ahead, but don’t expect us to cover your time when someone else is doing the hard part of the job.

The next weekend, I told the guys that I thought my plan was solid, and that I wanted to go ahead with the work. Surprisingly, I got a thumbs up to do the work after an ‘it’s your funeral’ look from Mr. Stock and the ‘I’d like to say something, but I raised three boys, so won’t’ grimace from Mr. Morelli.

FM: If you are absolutely confident, then have at it, but call the customer and tell him you’ll be slipping the delivery date a week.

Me: !@$%!!

No - I did not get paid for that four hours of pounding in increasing numbers of crimped 245 tang frets. Yes – I was close to tears after reaching a state of utter frustration as the relief refused to budge.

The guys suggested I pull all the frets clear of the body and weight the body for a relief measurement. That told me what I should have figured out from the initial numbers and close inspection of a slot or two.

Abuse? No…or at least not for those of us with parents not prone to offering participation trophies for just showing up. That gentlemen like Mr. Turner and others mentioned earlier in the thread are willing to offer their lessons learned absent the hard knocks taken should be cause for gratitude rather than irritation.

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If you're really successful at (BS'ing), it means you're not hanging around enough people smarter than you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson

I learned a lot from Fillipo and Todd. Yes, they could be brusque. But I learned a LOT. Still stay in touch with them on FB. I also learned a lot from Chris Pile. Now, my style has evolved. I'm not going to go to the brusque side anymore. If I can help it. Basically, if I cannot make my point in the open forum, I will take it to PM, if that fails, I will move on.

Hesh (we are being honest her, right?) probably still does not like me. And honestly, I could care less. I still believe essays are meant for books. Not forums. Nobody knows everything, not even Hesh. That said, I still learn from him and I long ago decided to bury the hatchet on that. Hesh knows what I mean. Peace...

Being a dick is optional.

Rather a learned skill, Mr. Bond, as both gentlemen outside of the apprenticeship had nothing but time and interest to spare for my other projects, as they do for friends and neighbors. Reciprocity got hand-waved away on furniture, etc., including hours of instruction and stencil cutting/picking/prep for electro-etching and anodizing on what were euphemistically referred to as my metal shop projects. My two MSR builds are loaded with parts from both gentlemen, and not the MILSPEC, bargain-bin stuff.

Same for what seemed like infinite time granted me on the range and in the woods. I have a hard time faulting someone that spends a day with me working through single- and two-person clearing procedures, then another working through my stack of build issues on the flat range, to include gas block and can tuning...all the while ignoring his own recently completed projects. If memory serves, the last range excursion saw Mr. Stock spend most of his time spotting shots for the rest of us, or fixing our poorly setup stuff.

I did talk to a few of his military coworkers when we bumped onto one of his old crews during a fly-in brunch in Cambridge, MD. The upshot was that Mr. Stock was tireless in making sure the units he commanded were fully prepared to get the job done and ruthless in moving people out that could not meet standard. Apparently, check-rides from Mr. Stock were very, very, VERY thorough, but removed all doubt as to the examinee's level of competence or lack thereof. The term used was '...like a proctology exam, but six hours long.'

So perhaps a conditional dick, but of generous nature?

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If you're really successful at (BS'ing), it means you're not hanging around enough people smarter than you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson

You assume I refer to Mr. Stock specifically, which I don’t. Never met the guy.

Am I the only one on tender hooks waiting to find out what exactly needed to be done to address the D-18s neck issues

Hesh likes you just fine Mike and I admire your perseverance with Lutherie and your stuff looks great. You are also one of the few rocket scientists that I know and that's something to be respected in my book. I also agree with you there can be a lot to learn from people who we may not like how they deliver the message. Well said.

I really do not want to contribute to the body of knowledge that makes for 'if this, then that' problem solving, rather than the sort of open-minded detective work that is preferable and which builds a firm understanding of root cause(s) and effect(s). A few thoughts offered:

- Everything used eventually wears beyond acceptable tolerances
- Careful inspection of those worn-out things should be a part of the inspection process, and should help confirm or refute the accuracy of initial inspection
- It is worth taking a moment to look at things removed and where that thing was previously installed
- Owner recollection of prior work done is notoriously unreliable (witness effect writ large) and usually consists of only the most recent or most expensive work done. Law enforcement, military interrogators, medical professionals, and lawyers may further amplify...

More to the specific question?

Compression fretting for relief adjustment only works where there is something for the oversized tang to press against to create that wedging effect.

Understand that those here with decades of repair experience likely had several possible diagnoses and were formulating related courses of corrective action - pending more data - before getting much beyond the 'FM: blah, blah' stuff in my opening paragraphs. One more good reason to consider setting bruised egos aside when dealing with those providing 'brusquely offered guidance.'

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If you're really successful at (BS'ing), it means you're not hanging around enough people smarter than you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson

Isn't this what double acting rods were designed for?

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

Yes...and one of those possible courses of action I alluded to might be to remove the fretboard, install an adjustable truss rod, fabricate a new Brazilian rosewood fretboard, and to make the needed changes inside the body to allow post-fretwork relief adjustment.

I'll let the other repair and restoration specialists weigh in on whether they would consider that as the ultimate or even penultimate course of action in this sitution, but in the shop where I worked, other less intrusive, equally effective methods to address worn-out fret slots and excessive relief would be employed for the vast majority of vintage non-adjustable neck Martins in otherwise healthy condition.

Ah...my flight is called...finally! Have a lovely day and enjoy the holiday weekend!

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If you're really successful at (BS'ing), it means you're not hanging around enough people smarter than you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson

I am amazed we made it this far in this conversation without any real escalating conflicts. I learned a lot from all of the above named individuals that at times were considered rude or even disrespectful. I think the hard conversations on the forum were not in posts where advise was given rather they were when threads devolved into personal back and forth attacks and insults. Sure there was the occasional rough reply when an inexperienced builder pushed back on freely given help with misunderstood second hand information. In those cases some may have felt dumped on, but generally they did not escalate. As of late the forum, while nearly unmoderated, has had very respectful, supportive and helpful participation.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Most of what people got fed up with had absolutely nothing to do with talking guitar, and I think that’s perfectly illustrated here, too.

FWIW, I have no idea why Rick gets brought up in these threads. I’d encourage everyone to go read his posts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1
Because he is not here.....

For anyone that doesn’t already know this - if using the web browser version of the site (I.e not Tapatalk) you can search for posts by author and get someone’s whole post history! I’ve read every post from a few folks, it’s like a crash course.

Unfortunately I believe you can’t search for removed user names, so searching for Todd Stock for example doesn’t work, although it’s been a while since I tried it. But… you can get a some of those nuggets even from deleted users if their comments were quoted by another user.

Hesh, you can tell Dave I’ve read everything he’s ever posted. I tried to read all your posts but I don’t have that much time.

Unfortunately when you get back into the archives a lot of the photos are gone. They are either hosted on photobucket or similar and have disappeared or they were links to sites that are dead. I recently wanted to go back through the mandolin archive from Haans but all the photos are gone.

Go learn something!

Brad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I posted a picture of a fretboard here, and one of the members pointed out there was a wonky fret position in the upper register. I thanked him, and he said, "Thanks for taking that well". I responded that I was not stupid, and I know there are guys here that are good, and will catch stuff like that. It's why I'm here.
If you cannot take constructive criticism, you cannot grow. I for one am glad for all the curmudgeons and "pointer outers" around. Keep doing it!

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

Mike I appreciate your comments and I like you am OK with the idea that the learning process may not always be a coddling experience. When I arrived here in around 2006 we were smacked down often and what resulted is some of us are now professionals who own Lutherie businesses and make our living at it. For me it was not about the so-called romance of calling oneself a Luthier... I really wanted excel at Lutherie and perhaps be a Luthier as my retirement gig. That's exactly what I am now a professional Luthier who co-owns a busy, successful shop in Ann Arbor.

I pushed back and did not like the incivility at all back then. But in hindsight I was the stranger in this strange land called Loofierism (shout out to the Padma) and I should have shut up more and put my head down and learned more instead. The information was here but some including me may get sidetracked by the idea that none of us can possibly know it all all of the time. Sometimes everyone of us is completely new and that was the case with me. My ego got in my way and thankfully those helping me hung in with me anyway. I was wrong. My focus was on presentation and my feelers and not the information and the value that it represented.

You will do well Mike you have an understanding of not only why you are here but why I am here too. Thanks for your comments and thanks to everyone for their comments too.

Hesh, just saw your note from 1 month ago. Sounds like a cool band the funkadelics.. Never heard of them ?. What were they noted for ?? cheers ernie.

Quick search P-Funk for the story... more of a Catfish and Bootsy girl myself, but that entire back catalog deserves a spin. Yes...two separate bands for branding (Parliament more straight-up funk and Funkadelic more whatever works), but same members.

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If you're really successful at (BS'ing), it means you're not hanging around enough people smarter than you.

Neil deGrasse Tyson

Ernie - you not hip to Parliament/Funkadelic? You've been missing out on some terrific grooves, my friend. They'll have you shaking your ass in no time. C'mon sing it with me - "WE WANT THE FUNK. GOTTA HAVE THAT FUNK".

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

They also were known for "Free your mind and your arse will follow"

You folks are way ahead of me, lol.We are super square. I primarily listen to classical music. I spent 10 years learning to play the violin in high scrool and the symphony orchestra We toured upstate NY an VT,. Later on I learned to play the classical guitar. and I own a custom django reinhardt sty;le maccaferi jazz guitar. Thanks for the heads up I will check them out. !!

Put yer dancing shoes on...

Ed being from can couver ( my kids call it) I only own hiking boots . They are quite the band !!!,