Official Luthiers Forum!

Please take note of Don's post he's fretting like the pros do and as such Don will have zero problem making the transition to "billable hours" if he ever wants to do some repair work. I have to tell you when the outlay of personal funds spent on Lutherie one day becomes less than the income from Lutherie it's a very proud day in the development of a Luthier and Don is well on his way to that.

I'm proud of you Don and I hope you don't mind me saying this. We knock our head against the wall for years here so when someone actually takes the advice and benefits from it as intended it's a great day and you just made my day.

So thanks man on a number of levels.

It is I who thank you, Hesh, for all of the sound advice you provide here on the OLF! I appreciate the kind words. But, really, I'm just trying to incorporate the earned knowledge of repair folks like you into what I build. There are different ways of doing things, all with their own sets of goods and bads. I'm just trying to pick a path that makes sense for what I want the end result to be, and how my present tools and skills can best get me there. In this instance, it is the concept of treating the first fret job not too differently from every other fret job this guitar will get in its hopefully long lifetime. Thanks for helping me (and many of us) see the wisdom in that approach.

I was just thinking, you could make a very stiff clamping call with a very slight arch in it and that might even off any back bow or in worst case scenario give it some proper relief.

Like Don, the very last thing I do on a guitar is fret it and that includes planing the fretboard and arching it. Then using the fret leveling beam to make a compound radius and dead flat. So any minor discrepancies are worked out.

One more idea, I learned from reading Gore's book when gluing on the bridge plate to spritz the top of the plate with water to counter act the pull from the water based glue on the opposite site. FB's might be too thick for that but then again if it is indeed bending back due to water maybe that would work too?

I still use epoxy for fretboards (usually T-88), but I did have to learn to not over-clamp. Epoxies with long open times can squeeze out of a joint easily. I'm surprised to hear someone say they think you can't starve an epoxy joint. Early on, I had two fretboards almost spontaneously fall off of necks. (Beginner's not-luck.) I'm pretty gentle on that joint now.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

You may wish to review that earlier post and note the qualifier - coating both surfaces with epoxy is a necessary step, and avoiding the sort of truly ridiculous clamp-ups sometimes seen.

If those surfaces can be coated successfully (105/205/206 shows near-immediate evidence of poor surface prep if you are paying attention), the joint will be very difficult to starve. In point of fact, slow-cure, lower viscosity epoxies will continue to squeeze out even with light clamping forces until the bonding surfaces are in or very close to contact. The epoxy left in the joint - both in micro key-ways (mechanical binding) and some wetting of the surface layers of wood cells in the outer thousandth of an inch or so of wood (both mechanical and Van Der Waals inter-molecular bonding) - is more than adequate.

On clamping, we usually used 4-5 Bessey F-style clamps, and the most that I could generate with my hand strength was still less than 50% of the rated maximum (~1300 lbs), as measured with a device in a local university testing lab. And before you ask, a visit to the lab was a tolerable price to pay for help dropping off a pair of bicycles with my niece, who was at the time attending that university. That I had to endure the usual frat boy strength contest (the 20-something lacrosse-playing grad student escorting us won handily, exceeding Bessey's numbers and permanently damaging the clamp) was fully expected.

Per Mr. Stock, who has worked with structural and surfacing epoxies in marine and aircraft for what would now be five decades both as craftsman and engineer, the biggest issues with epoxy joints are a) failure to fully wet out both surfaces prior to closing the joint, and b) poor surface preparation with resultant low surface energy which prevents the sort of inter-molecular bonding which provides much of the bond strength associated with these joints. Per a text exchange this AM, he does agree that the joint may be starved, but is far less likely when a) and b) above are avoided and the usual 4-5 clamps are used per his method. To your point, he suggested that every joint failure postmortem (in normal use) to which he had been party included evidence of either a) or b) above.

Well, I used Titebond again on my current build.
I made a new caul and used a precision straightedge to verify caul, neck, and fretboard were flat.
I used firm but not overly tight clamping pressure.
Sure enough, the fretboard side of the neck has a hump in the middle once again.
I’m convinced it is the water in the glue.
I guess I’ll try epoxy next time.

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

I'm a bit of an outlier I guess. I've followed quite a few of Grumpy's methods over the years and really like installing frets before glueing the fretboard to the neck. I've done it both ways and just like it for the ease when using my arbor press and also clamp the board ends down with a block in the middle as per Grumpy (Mario). I am certainly no pro, but I haven't experienced any negative consequences by doing so.

Same here and no problems either.


Steve

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

How long did you keep it clamped up for? How big is the hump?

I use the same method that you have stated for 70 guitars now with Titebond and HHG and Elmers on my first couple, all water based glue and have never dealt with this problem and yet you and many others have made the same claims so I find it interesting.

Maybe it comes down to what we all may collectively think 'firm but not tight' pressure is. Maybe it's the clamp time, for me on FB, head plates, bridges and things like that it's a minimum of 12 hours.

the neck is the most critical part of the guitar and if you want it to play the best you have to eliminate all the variables you can.

after 25 yrs of building this is my method.
A tite bone or any good wood glue.
B I glue my fretboard on usinging a caul and clamped board down to a granite plate to get the board straight and true
C Once glued to the neck I true up the fretboard on the guitar

this process eliminates camber, twist, and ensures the fret board is more true as any clamping variable is eliminated.

once on the body I use a radiused block and can check the process with a dead on straight edge.
I do a lot of compression frets and this makes it much more accurate.

now that the board is true , sanded and prepped I use a small pillar file and break the slot edges to get a better fit
so nothing will be holding off the frets. I still prefer a hammer ( A cobblers chasing hammer ) is my favorite.

I use the fret buck and set the frets on the body first using .0185 tangs
I do use water to moisten the slots and a drop of tite bond at the ends to seal and close up the slots so not to show a gap

I also use 2 6 lb weights to be see how the neck is flexing under load.
Once frets are set I let set a few hours to let the wood dry and barbs to seat.
Then level , here I use a dead flat machined block of aluminium with 320 on one side 600 on the other.
each fret gets marked with a sharpie pen.

This next step is important.
level the frets , let the bar do the work don't press , once the fret surfaces are clean of ink , adjust the fret
extension and put about a .015 drop off to allow rise in the top from RH changes.

dress fret ends and polish frets. I use a fret protector and use from 1000 to 2000 grit and then polish,
When I am done I again adjust the neck dead flat and check for any high or loose frets.

the details in the fret job tell the difference from the guitars playability
there are not short cuts.

without good gluing and clamping process you have too many variables that can twist the fret board,

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I let the glue cure for 24 hours.
I estimate the initial hump to be 1/16”.
I’ve been slowly cranking the truss rod, the hump is about 1/32” now.
My caul teeters on the fretboard, so I guess the hump occurred during glue up.
The neck is Mahogany, I cut the blank and let it sit for a couple months, it showed no sign of movement.
I’ll cut the side profile of the neck and hopefully the truss rod will be easier to crank.
Thanks a bunch for the feedback guys!

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

I like the idea of truing the fretboard blank after gluing.
I have an extensive inlay, and cut and install it on the fretboard blank.
I’ll see if I can do the inlay after the fb is glued to the neck blank.
This seems like a great idea,

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

I actually do the inlay before gluing
to make one point clear
A I always true the fretboard up before anything
this what the little discrepancies are easy to address.

so to inlay radius and true the best you can , I use a piece of wide masking tape the length of the
fret board on my table saw or granite plate

radius with 80 120 150 180
do my inlay keeping it just a tad high

level sand with 180

glue on
at most you may only need to sand about .010
again once glued on the guitar true up with radius block are good flat sanding block
120 150 180 220 320 400 600

I want a nice finish on the fretboard Ebony polishes better than rosewood

so sand till your happy

no another tip was the board with kiwi shoe polish use the right color
clear slots and proceed with fretting
the wax help avoid water staining

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Wood moves unpredictably when wetted differentially, and waterbased glues contain quite a bit of water. Depending on a neck, board, and caul that were true when dry to remain true when wet is a gamble. We never embraced those odds, and instead did all fretboard glue-ups using a strongback... an I-beam made of 18mm hardwood plywood. In addition to providing a true surface for the caul, the strongback cancels any inertial effects from the clamps while avoiding adding a bunch of clamp/caul/fixture weight to the mix.

We had a minimum drying cycle of 36 hours for maple fretboards or other common low and medium-density hardwoods, while 72 hours was norm for ebony and rosewood. A non-contact moisture meter is a nice thing to have available in the shop, and can inform the decision on when to think about unclamping, but waiting an additional 24-36 hours costs nothing for a hobby builder and is quite reliable.

Summary: Waterbased glues = strongback for 36-72 hour... the longer the better.

Here’s the neck in question.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

For those that use water based glues and are using measures to keep the distortion to a minimum I would ask, why not use epoxy?

epoxy is not repairable

Been doing this over 25 year
give me tite bond

I do clamp it 24 hrs but it is a very stable blue.
curing glues like tite bond and elmers are repairable and can be removed. Rare but sometimes a fret board must come off,
I used epoxy in my early days and stopped.

Martin does this over 200 times a day clamped under vacuum for 25 min.

the more I do this the less I use CA Epoxy west systems 3 for crack repair

You still get some distortion from using epoxy from the clamping process. If you think you can take a piece of material and glue it on just using clamps and not get distortion you are mistaken. The fact is , distortion is slight only a few thousandths of an inch and in all cases , this is why you true up the fret board after gluing to the neck.

By fretting later on the neck you can get the fret board straight and the better the fret board the better the
fret job.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I have taken off epoxy glued fretboard and they come off easier and cleaner than Titebond.

Wow 72 hours? I have been clamping for 24 maybe I should consider longer.

Dan that's a great looking inlay on that neck.

I agree with John, and I think most of us do it this way it seems, but fretting at the end once the neck is set in will get rid of any minor dependencies in the FB. And I'd say about ten years ago I got a level beam from Stew Mac and it was a game changer.

I think you're both right, depending on the epoxy formulation.

I'm sure I remember Rick Turner posting about using epoxy for fretboards and emphasizing that we can't make generalizations about "epoxy" because there are so many different formulations with widely varying characteristics that we have to name the specific epoxy formula for statements about it to have any meaning.

I think I remember Rick saying that there are formulations that let go at lower temperatures than Tight Bond, and I assume there are others designed to withstand much higher temperatures.

Leo, I agree with what you are saying. I use West Systems and it releases with heat very well. I know there are other epoxies that are much more heat resistant.

Thanks for sharing which epoxy you're using Barry. I haven't yet tried any for fretboards but I'll start with West System when I get a chance.

The one true downside with epoxy on a fretboard is dealing with the squeeze out. You want to not skimp on applying epoxy and I apply it to both surfaces fairly liberally so there is considerable squeeze out. To control it, I apply masking tape on both sides of the neck and fold up the lower edge to create a small gutter to catch the drippings.

Good tip. I've used epoxy a couple of times for this and clean-up considerations were a pain and front and center for me.