Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:44 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:07 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:02 am
Posts: 8523
Location: United States
First name: Lance
Last Name: Kragenbrink
City: Vandercook Lake
State: Michigan
Zip/Postal Code: 49203
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Like most things with lutherie, this is only one way to do it!

Below is a fairly quick and accurate method of making an X brace using a laminate trimmer, 1/4" bit, table saw and a Luthier Suppliers brace radiusing jig.

First thing I do is square up all four sides of my brace stock.






Then I mark were I want to cut the lap joint. Here I am using a 96* splay for my OMFS model.





Next I measure from the out side of the bit to the edge of the base, this will give me the distance I need to place my fence from the line I want to cut.








Here I have clamped on a temporary fence then check the deapth of cut.







Next I cut the 1/4" channel.







Next I take the brace stock to the table saw. I want to cut my braces just a tad wider than 1/4".








Now I will sneak up on the final thickness of the brace using my drum sander.






I am shooting for .250, getting close.






The last few thousands are taken of using 220 to give the brace a nice clean appearance.






Perfect fit!






The last thing I do is establish the radius. Some people use a sanding dish, some mark the radius and plan it off, I use one of Luthier Suppliers radius jigs. Love this thing!







Finished!


_________________
Subscribe to the OLF Classifieds!
Support the OLF! Bookmark our AMAZON link!
Sole owner & moderator of LuthiersForum.com
Lance@LuthiersForum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:27 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:56 am
Posts: 852
Location: United States
Super tutorial, Lance. I don't make acoustics, but your methods and processes will be very useful to me in making clasicals and flamencos.

Many thanks,
Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

_________________
Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:59 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 10335
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Tecumseh and Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Lance you tooted!!!!  Excellent toot my friend!!!  Many thanks for this!

In another thread a while back we discussed when you have a perfect fit not gluing the braces at the intersection and instead gluing one of them at a time onto the top.  When the second brace is glued the X joint is also buttered up and glued.  This is attractive to me because you only have one X-brace to go-bar and clean around at once.  And when using HHG you don't have 5 points of alignment to get right all at once.

Do you think that you will glue this way or do you already?

Great job Lance!!!


_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars
World-Class Repair and Restoration
http://www.annarborguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:23 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:02 am
Posts: 8523
Location: United States
First name: Lance
Last Name: Kragenbrink
City: Vandercook Lake
State: Michigan
Zip/Postal Code: 49203
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Thanks Guys!

Hesh, No I prefer to glue up the X brace prior to gluing it down to the top.

_________________
Subscribe to the OLF Classifieds!
Support the OLF! Bookmark our AMAZON link!
Sole owner & moderator of LuthiersForum.com
Lance@LuthiersForum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:24 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:02 am
Posts: 8523
Location: United States
First name: Lance
Last Name: Kragenbrink
City: Vandercook Lake
State: Michigan
Zip/Postal Code: 49203
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
[QUOTE=Hesh] Lance you tooted!!!!  Excellent toot my friend!!! 
[/QUOTE]

Excuse me!

_________________
Subscribe to the OLF Classifieds!
Support the OLF! Bookmark our AMAZON link!
Sole owner & moderator of LuthiersForum.com
Lance@LuthiersForum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:51 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:21 am
Posts: 805
Location: United States
First name: Jim Howell

Lance--


Thanks for the tutorial!  Using a router to accurately set the x-brace angle and width fit just rocks!  As Hesh has mentioned above, I glue mine in one at a time on the go-bar deck.  Seemed intuitively easier!


 


 


_________________
Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:58 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9174
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Very nice tutorial Lance.  Welcome to the Toot Board of Excellence.  

_________________
Waddy

Waddy Thomson Guitars

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:40 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:50 pm
Posts: 4662
Location: Napa, CA
Thanks, Lance...nice method!

I radius my braces in the Bob C. router jig that he posted 3-4 years ago...when he used to make terrific guitars!

I'm also in the camp where I assemble and join the 2 halves and glue in one piece. Before that, however I sand the assembled X in it's appropriate sanding dish to make sure that all is smooth at the juncture. I glue up in the radiused dish in a gobar deck. Make sure you keep the dish and the top clamped so it won't rotate during the glueup...this is important IMO.

Even with HHG, I've never struggled with time. One key is to keep the surfaces warm to allow for more open time. Also...no wasted motion...keep everything within reach. Practice so that the dance is choreographed without any hitches. Here's how I do it with plenty of time to spare:

1) heat the surface of the top with a hair dryer
2) microwave the X-assembly for 20-30 sec on high
3) Lay down a bead on the top between the bracing pencil lines
4) Place the X in place and put one gobar in the center, followed by the others along the legs.

Steps #3 & #4 take around 30 seconds max. Once you do this a few times you'll get the knack of how large the bead needs to be for minimal squeeze-out. Early on I used alignment blocks at the brace overhang as well as the X juncture itself but I don't need that anymore. Be creative and devise your own time savers. Once you get confident, you'll find that it's far less scary than you ever imagined. Just do it!

Rant over!




_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:58 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:24 am
Posts: 744
Location: United States
Lance....great tutorial.

_________________
Brad
Avon, OH


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:59 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 2819
Location: Alexandria MN
That's great Lance.  I like your slotting technique.  I built a slotting jig way back that works fine but it only does one angle.  Your idea for measuring the router bit-base edge distance is way too simple! 
BTW is that the Grizzly G0512 edge sander?  Has it worked well for you?
Terry


_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:03 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 2819
Location: Alexandria MN
Oh yeah, one other thing, When you guys cut your braces after you've squared up the stock do you get much warping as the wood is stress relieved? 
Terry


_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:06 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:35 am
Posts: 1325
Location: Kings Mtn., NC, USA
First name: Bill
Last Name: Greene
City: Kings Mountain
State: North Carolina
Zip/Postal Code: 28086
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Great Lance...just great. I appreciate this. I've done two the old fashioned way, and this will work perfectly for what I want to do, which is cut a few properly, and rubber band them together and put them aside for later use.

Thanks!

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:29 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6674
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
Thanks Lance, great method.

I want to use the router to cut the channel to, you've given me an other way to make this work. Thank you.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:33 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6674
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
PS,

That's one heafty looking vice you got there. Do you use soft jaws of some sort when holding parts?

Also, are you a lefty? You have your table saw fence on the opposite side that I see most (not that there is anything wrong with that)

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:42 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5915
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Terence Kennedy] That's great Lance.  I like your slotting technique.  I built a slotting jig way back that works fine but it only does one angle.  Your idea for measuring the router bit-base edge distance is way too simple!  BTW is that the Grizzly G0512 edge sander?  Has it worked well for you?Terry
[/QUOTE]

After seeing yours I actually built an adjustable version of yours. Not only can you adjust the angle, but you can also replicate angles exactly over and over again. I used a drill bushing and a registration pin.

The pictures should be clear.






_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:52 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6674
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
Nice looking jig Brock, but I'm confused with one thing.

where do you put the brace stock? It sure looks like you'd run the braces against the fence but where does the router run? It looks like it runs more parallel to the fence rather than perpendicular.

I'd like to make something like you've made and I have an idea of how I'll do it, just thought you'd explain the "cutting" a bit.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:57 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 5915
Location: United States

Sorry,

I put it under the front of the table. There is a fence spaced 1" back from the edge of the front. I place stop blocks in there and clamp the braces to it.

The only thing you have to do is make sure and put a sacrifice piece behind it or you will get some tear out as the router leaves the stock. (and ... I suppose this is obvious, but the sacrifice piece needs to be of a uniform thickness so you don't mess up the angle.)


_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:08 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 2819
Location: Alexandria MN
That's cool Brock.  I may re-tool
Terry


_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:10 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6674
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
Ah, now I get it. Thanks Brock. Somewhat similar to Charlie Hoffman's jig on his website, but yours is adjustable.

Thanks Brock.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:12 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
All fun, but..

... Why use a router to make the lap joint, when you have a table saw right there? Set the miter gauge at the angle of your X brace, set the blade height, and cut. Use whatever blade is in there, and nibble the waste. Use a drill bit as your guide to the width if you wish to pre-cut the notch as you did here.

The router works, but it's one more tool to set up, take out, more clamps, etc... You're already at the table saw.

I thought I saw an edit button?



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:19 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:02 am
Posts: 8523
Location: United States
First name: Lance
Last Name: Kragenbrink
City: Vandercook Lake
State: Michigan
Zip/Postal Code: 49203
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Mario, I have cut most of my lap joints using my table saw. It indeed does work great!
I find this method quick and more accurate.
But that's just me

I'm sure there are those that would say "Why use a table saw" Just mark your line and use a pull saw and chisel! Much easer!"

Guess its what your comfortable with.

My first comment in my thread was...

"Like most things with lutherie, this is only one way to do it! "

_________________
Subscribe to the OLF Classifieds!
Support the OLF! Bookmark our AMAZON link!
Sole owner & moderator of LuthiersForum.com
Lance@LuthiersForum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:33 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:07 am
Posts: 815
Location: Olympia
First name: Mark
Last Name: Tripp
City: Olympia
State: Washington
Zip/Postal Code: 98506
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Great tutorial Lance.

Thanks!

-Mark


_________________
Pullman, WA

The more I know, the more I know I don't know.

trippguitars.com
OR
Find me on Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:52 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:14 am
Posts: 2590
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Bill Greene] Great Lance...just great. I appreciate this. I've done two the old fashioned way, and this will work perfectly for what I want to do, which is cut a few properly, and rubber band them together and put them aside for later use.

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Or do a "Bruce D." and make about a thousand of 'em, glue 'em up, and hang 'em on a hook in your shop...that makes all the other guys (like me) jealous!

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:55 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:14 am
Posts: 2590
Location: United States
Hesh, if Lance tooted, it'd be so CLEAN you wouldn't notice!

_________________
http://www.presnallguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:27 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 1315
Location: Branson, MO
First name: stan
Last Name: thomison
City: branson
State: mo
Zip/Postal Code: 65616
Country: united states
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I have used both, and the tablesaw with daddo blade to do the cutting. Now without a table saw with try this until can get new (used) saw.
Do you do left and right side legs seperate? I do the radius on brace gluing surface first. Mark them left and right and put them in a small storage place for later use.
Try to keep shop at steady rh so no warping. I do several guitars at a time and pull them out as needed. In fact do all the braces at one time. Shaping, if using scallop or not and have them ready. I use vacuum to glue braces at one shot (well except the bridge plate and large transverse brace which do prior to X and others. Just another way, probably not best, but works form me.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com