Official Luthiers Forum!

I recently had a request for a quote on a "To Spec" 1958 Flying V. An unusual request for sure. Just wondering if anyone would care to comment on what they would charge for a commission like that.

Figure out your cost to make it!
Time (labor)
Parts etc..
Then give him a price!

That's what I'd do!
A 58 would set him back thousands !!

Mike

_________________
Mike Collins

Well if you're a regular luthier then you'll know how long it takes to build one of your regular instruments and what you charge for that. So just take the amount and divide by the hours it takes to build and then figure out how long to build this particular instrument. Take that figure and go from there. That should give you a pretty good idea.

I personally never build copies of guitars. Let's say a customer wants a '59 Les Paul, why, because of the sound? Because of the look and feel? Well no matter how good you are a '59 Les Paul is just not reproduceable, especially the age of the wood at this point. So I just tell the customer, hey my guitars are not cheap, so just go buy a '59 Les Paul or Gibson makes a lot of revival guitars.

Business method
Material cost + labor cost + overhead ( Over head is cost of utilities equal to hours spent on that job and consumables spent on that job) + margin (margin is the amount of profit you wish to make above the the cost of materials, labor and over head expenses this is typically between 15%-40%)

In this method the labor rate is the amount you feel your labor is worth as a cost only. Your labor rate has no mark up for profit. the profit is the margin or the total cost to you x a percentage. If your keeping books and need to justify profitability this is the formula to use.



Common method
Material cost + (labor Rate x hours actually spent) + over head. In this method you set an hourly labor rate that is marked up for profit.

In this method your profit is in the labor rate or you determine that for every hour you work you want X dollars profit + the dollar amount per hour your time is worth to you. (labor cost per hour + profit per hour= labor rate)

if your not keeping books then use this method

$5,600

Disclaimer: This price is if you are a professional Luthier and your work is flawless. Also - the basis for my number above is my own gut and what a guitar like this would be worth to me. I have no idea what a going rate or current market price might be.

Never heard of a Flying V, but I've heard of a flying leap. My wife tells me to take one all the time.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Just as a general Idea Hesh, The national average for labor cost in figuring a manufactured product is 2 times the average employees hourly wage rate. So if the average hourly salary of an employee is $17.50 per hour the "cost" of his labor is $35 this accounts for salary, social security matching and benefits.

Of course we don’t have to worry with that mess so a good starting point for someone is to assume that on average nation wide across all manufacturing the “cost” of labor is $17.50. then if you are working on the common method I showed above and want to make a 40% margin on your labor then the labor rate would be $17.50 +40%(7.00)=$24.50 per hour labor rate.

These figures are hypothetical only and are based of the average national manufacturing labor’s per hour labor rate some parts of manufacturing is higher cost and others are lower

I don’t even preclude I have any idea what yours or anyone’s else’s labor is worth to them as a min. cost per hour. But without having a known vale of your labor as a cost, you are just spitting in the wind as far as knowing profitability. if you dont know what you are worth to your self per hour then you don't know if your making money or loosing money

Michael bro at one time I had 1,100 direct reports and what we used to calculate a price for something was 5 X the "fully loaded " (fully loaded is much like your example: salary/wages, benefits, all associated costs of the employee(s)) plus materials marked up 100% over cost.

A simplification of this thinking is that something should cost, in terms of labor, 5 X all associated labor costs plus marked up materials. The expectation was that costs were not just to be covered, all corporate resources of which people are the number one resource were priced in such a manner as to cover lost productivity and the opportunity costs that result from specific and exclusive tasking.

If you feel like - me too, I never fully understood the corporate mindset.......

Assuming we're talking about building an solid-body electric guitar, I would find this cost extremely difficult to justify to a customer... No offense to any luthiers that build electric guitars, but from a customer's viewpoint, we're not talking about bending sides or carving out braces. There's no carved top or fancy designs either... The Flying V is essentially a block of wood with a neck, which is probably the single part that takes the most skill in building that particular model...

From a builder's point of view, of course your time and labor is valuable to you, but I wonder how many customers would actually pay something around this amount given the fact that you can get a replica from Gibson for something like $8500 (50th Anniversary) which would really have better market resale value in the end if only for the Gibson name... Given the fact that resale value probably doesn't factor into the equation since he's asking a private luthier, I can't imagine that a standard Gibson Flying V made today would lose in terms of playability to a '58... If it's the tone he's after, a replica made today still wouldn't have the same tone as a guitar made 50 years ago...

This is just my curiosity speaking, pineknot, but did your customer give you any reasoning behind why he specifically wanted a replica of a 1958 Flying V and has he mentioned how much his budget is? It certainly is a strange request...

So you're arguing that a 'flawless' hand-made, one-off instrument should not only be less...but -significantly- less expensive than a mass-produced product from a company with Gibson's shoddy QC history? I think Hesh's price could be reasonable, depending on what's involved and the reputation of the builder. I'd like to say I'm surprised that Gibson can get that much for their version, but given the power of psychoacoustics and marketing I'm never surprised at the price of some factory instruments anymore. Heck, with the right marketing you can do anything.

Case in point: Of all companies making guitars, PRS is by far the most automated that I know of. They're always a step ahead of the curve on what processes are automated. What have I heard the fanboys say about them time after time? "They sound better because they're handmade!". That's the power of marketing.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Depends on exactly what ""To Spec"" means to your customer.
I would want those specs spelled out in great detail before I'd consider pricing.

I do believe the price is a realistic price for a handmade instrument. My point was primarily that I didn't understand why someone would ask for that. Something like a '58 Flying V isn't generally bought for the purpose of playing it. It's usually people that are collecting guitars that buy stuff like that. That's why Gibson can get as much as they want for it. They aren't selling a guitar, they're selling a collectable item and even though it's mass-produced, it has higher market resale value because of the Gibson name. I don't doubt that the actual quality of the handmade guitar would be much better. What confuses me is the request to make the handmade guitar to the specs of the '58 which is why I was curious as to why the customer wanted it.

I have a spreadsheet which adrian legge a blacksmith friend worked out it takes into account RENT, UTILITIES, EQUIPMENT, REPAIRS/RENEWALS, CONSUMABLES, RATES, INSURANCE, FINANCE -BANK CHARGES, FINANCE -HIRE PURCHASE, DEPRECIATION, OFFICE SUPPLIES, MARKETING, SUBSCRIPTIONS, EQUIPMENT/SOFTWARE, COMMUNICATIONS, AUDIT/ACCOUNTANCY,
VEHICLE, FUEL, TAX/MOT, MAINTENANCE, SALARY, NATIONAL INSURANCE SELF EMPLOYED, NATIONAL INSURANCE VOLUNTARY
SICK PAY, HOLIDAYS and PENSION, and then works out the hourly rate you need to charge to fulfill all these critera.

If anyone wants a copy pm me your email address and I'll foward it on.

_________________
Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Michael's (Jin) is right IMHO - people will pay what something is worth to them and if any of us try to make sense of this, especially in advance, the predictions are going to be all over the place.....

No one brought up that four letter word either - the economy which is going to have some impact on both the size of the potential market and what anything considered a disposable income purchase will fetch.

Again my price was a gut feeling based on a personal attraction to this guitar and a standard for workmanship as stated. YMMV - I was arguing nothing and said so.

About 10 years ago one of the first 3 Flying V's ever made was discovered in mint condition in Michigan. It had been given to an electrician in trade in exchange for work performed at the Gibson plant during a time when Gibson was struggling to survive. It was and is considered a prototype as well and was, and still is white now yellowing in color. It had all gold hardware and the same pick-ups as the legendary LPs of that era that have been known to bring some of the highest prices every paid for guitars.

The electrician had died of old age and the family found it under his bed. The electrician did not know how to play and the guitar appeared to have been never played....... The guitar was being sold on consignment through Herb David and priced at $100,000. So if you think that I low balled with my gut feeling you may be right.

It sat in a special case and had numerous inquiries, serious and otherwise from all over the world for about a year until it ultimately sold for $65,000.

What is the point of all of this? Although this example is certainly collectible - to many buyers of hand crafted guitars there is a inclination to believe that what they are purchasing will be collectible as well and again, the what it is worth to you syndrome kicks in too.

I thought that some may find it interesting that a vintage FV was offered at 100K and sold at 65K. I most certainly did.

I believe vintage '58s in good condition are running around $160,000 now. ^^;;

If a '58 Flying V to specs is what the customer wants, I don't see how a guitar would get closer to that than the anniversary reissue without actually being a genuine '58 Flying V... And once again, it it were just a matter of playability I don't think a person would specifically request someone to craft a '58 model to specs and if it were a matter of tone, then it's still not that same. If it were I, I would probably avoid this kind of order until I really had an understanding of what exactly the customer was looking for and why exactly he was looking for it.. But that's just me...

BEWARE!!!! BEWARE!!!! BEWARE!!!!

What Michael says above is true, to a point - but there is a substantial community of folks who obsess with the detailed specifications of vintage Gibsons, literally to the point of being neurotic about it. Every time Gibson comes out with a reissue, they draw up a long laundry list of tiny ways in which they deviate from the original vintage instruments, and mock Gibson's efforts to reach that market. A reissue that looks just fine to Joe the Plumber looks more like Frankenstein's Monster to these guys (and they somehow forget that the originals were all handmade, and the term "spec" at a certain level of detail is merely a guideline).

There are actually a few guys who make a living as full-time consultants hired by folks ready to drop several hundred large on a vintage Gibson, just to authenticate them (see Joe Gansler) - they are experts in detecting these tiny differences - and this knowledge is permeating into the larger community.

Ask your potential customer what he feels is lacking from the Gibson reissue - if he turns out to be one of these neurotic spec guys, thank him for his interest and politely decline. You'll save yourself many headaches.

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

I have to agree with Michael again. Personally the last thing that I would ever want to build is an exact copy of another guitar. Admittedly I think that I lack the chops to pull this off and the lack of opportunity for any artistic and sonic input would bore me to tears.

It might be a good idea to observe the three rules of attorneys (and no offense intended, I am joking here..... ):

1) get the money up front

2) get the money up front

3) and be sure to get the money up front......

Thanks everyone for all your input and suggestions. Lots of good info as usual. That's why I put the question out there. Two heads are always better than one and some have covered fringe area thoughts that I might not have otherwise considered.
As for the commision, the guy is a player, collector but, has a real job and the money is really not the issue. There are a couple of modifications he wants on the guitar that are not offered on the re-issues. So, I'm certain he's not buying it for the collectibility factor or the future resale value. He seems to just be a person that wants what he wants (and has the money to get it) but, it happens to be something Gibson doesn't offer. And he happens to be a friend of a friend who has one of my custom guitars and contacted me by referral.

On the issue of the real deal. Here's a 58 V that recently sold at Christies.
http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=salesummary&intObjectID=5119360&sid=07962ba6-36d3-4c0c-815b-60c90d2ecd0b

Thanks again.

I don't know a single guitar builder who prices based on a formula using materials, overheads, and labor, etc. such as have been offered here. Which is good evidence that guitar making bears only the most remote resemblance to any real business. Everyone I know prices by looking around at what others are getting and where they stand in the pecking order, then seeing what people will pay. Of course this is no way to run a business! It's a way to live out a romantic fantasy. Anyone who wants to run a real business should go buy a plumbing shop.

I have a friend who is IMO among the handful of best guitar makers in the world whose focus is electrics, and I think is not excelled at this by anyone. He (sometimes, when a client is willing to pay for it) makes >perfect< (and I don't use the word lightly) Flying V replicas--so perfect that in order to prevent them or their parts being passed off as originals (yeah, you would have to add a serial number to the headstock), he engraves his name on the underside of the hardware. I don't know the current price, but it's well into 5 figures. IMO if someone is up on all the minutia and wants an exact replica of an historic instrument, the price should be at least what the factory charges for one that isn't as good.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Pricing can make or break you. Never and I mean Never do a job for less than you are worth. The profit margin compared to a manufacturing company is lower than you may think. Your customers and you must be very clear on what the outcome and expectations are. A hand made guitar should look good and you need to offer the customer a value for their investment in your time.
If you are in business or planning to go into business , the economic facts are that you need to make a profit. Overhead is the one area that most total miss. Not only do you have the heat and electric to pay , when you figure the profit , don't forget that you have income taxes that come out of that. If you plan on a guitar build and with the cost at $800 and time cost of 50 hours at $50 an hour. This seems like a great profit but is it? The $2500 plus $800 is a sale price of $2300 . Your $2500 "profit" is not subject to your income and will be taxed. Then we have the hidden costs . You plan on being self employed , look at the medical ins , business ins , Ad costs , tooling replacement and you can see that the hidden costs can add up and put a dent on the Great Profit.
I don't think $56oo would be an unreasonable price .
john hall

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

In my opinion, the $5600.00 price point suggested by Hesh above is a conservative low point to
consider working off of. I've owned a dozen or so of the reissue LesPauls that Gibson has offred in
the past 15 to 20 years and all were promptly sold...and at a profit to me.....to people who thought
they were worth the money.

I have an old Les Paul that my Dad paid $100.00 for and bought it from the original owner who
had played it for only a matter of less than 20 hours before falling into a state of callous and discipline
induced disenchantment with the prospect of playing the guitar.

That $100.00 price tag included that original hard case and a very cool little GA-6 combo amp. The
guitar wasn't exactly what I was hoping for with my neighbor and best friend getting a new Teisco Del
Ray and Sears and Roebuck guitars with that cool amp built into the case respectively. It promptly saw
my nose in the air toward it and was slid under my bed until I was 14 years old and was ready to join
guitar forces with a close friend to start our first band.

His father and mine had grown up together in the town where I lived and had remained pretty good
friends. His Dad was a well known local guitarist and led the most popular band in the area and my
Dad had no clue what end was up when it came to music, guitars, bands or anything related to them.
My friend Gordon had a nice D-18 that he was being taught on by his Dad, but was told that he would
have to show real commitment on the acoustic before he would be given and electric and an amp.

Well, with me being so eager to start the band and become famous for out blazing guitar work, I went
home and pulled out that old Gibson that I had only played a very few times since receiving for my 10th
birthday four years earlier. It was going to be a gift from me to my friend so we could embark on our
rise to fame without delay.

I had since held two separate paper routes. mowed countless lawns and shoveled seemingly endless
amounts of snow from walks and driveways during those years to buy myself a nice 1964 Tele and a
1968 Twin Reverb and was ready to part with that Les Paul and GA-6 as a sacrifice for fame, the fun and
the chicks that the band would undoubtedly bring my way.

There we were, two close friends in his living room jamming to some Zeppelin in preparation to
audition a drummer and a bass player who were interested in being in what would be the very first band
effort for all of us, when his guitarist Dad walks in and comments on my "new" guitar while pointing
at the Les Paul. I quickly explained, since he'd seen my Tele on many occasions before that the Gibson
was my "old" guitar and that I was giving it to his son, Gordon, so we could moving on this band thing.

He immediately walked over, looked at the rear of the headstock and said, "You're giving that to my
son?" I explained that I'd gotten it a few years earlier and never really liked it so it seemed OK to slip it
to him so we could get on our way to scheduling our gigs and the subsequent wave of dates that would
follow.

Being and honest guy and a good friend to my father, he got on the phone and revealed the plot to my
Dad. My Dad suggested that, if he'd like to give me the $100.00 that he'd paid for the guitar 4 years
earlier, it would make him feel better. It was them that my eyes were opened to what I was about to do
as Gordon's said to mine, "Vince, this guitar is probably worth over $5,000.00." There was silence for
about five seconds and he calmly hung the phone up, turned to me and said, "Your Dad told to have you
box that up and bring it home." It's gone up in value many time over the years since and after my Dad's
death a few years ago, I've been really happy that I still have it since it's the only guitar that he ever
bought for me. My first came as a gift from my Grandfather as Dad wasn't really into the idea of me
adding guitar lessons to my already busy piano practice/lesson regimen.

It's been in my possession ever since even though I did sell it once back in 2000 when the potential
buyer failed to come up with the funds to pay me so it came back to me after a few months. Then it was
borrowed by a recording artist for a few tracks and he disappeared with it for almost a year before we were
able to catch up with him down south. Two very large and very persuasive friends of mine were able to
coax it out of his hands and to bring it back to me. When they caught up with him in Shreveport, LA he
said, "Oh yeah....I forgot that I still had that."

I've bought and sold so many guitars, both new and vintage, over the years that I've lost track and
count of them, but I have been able to hold into a few that will end up being great things for me to leave
to my children one day. Whether they sell them or keep them is up to them, but at least I'll have held onto
something with them in mind. It was a real blessing to be able to sell a few during my long shoulder
injury layoff to keep our home and keep the lights on...most of the time, though. It was a rainy day and
out the door they went with no remorse or regret at the time.

My point to sharing this story is that vintage is vintage and nothing else can be. I like all of the methods
that masters like Tom Murphy and a few others are doing to make new stuff look authenticly old, but it's
impossible to emulate what time does to finishes, hardware, plastics and electronics.

If we're commissioned to build a spec rendition of a very well known vintage piece, we need to explain
this to the customer and prepare them for the tonal and aesthetic differences that will be inevitably present
when the guitar is completed. Once they're made aware of all and still go ahead with the order, make the
necessary charging arrangements to be sure that your entire investment including time for both research
and building and all material costs are covered fully up front.

Spec instruments fall to the very deepest parts of the custom nature of this business and one customer's
dream guitar and list of dream appointments may appeal to exactly zero other players in many cases so
the prospect of resale can be a very disheartening thing if they either reject the guitar or can;t come up with
the funds to pat for it on the back end of the build period.

That's why any time that I build a guitar with any custom appointments, material choices or inlay designs
that stray at all from my default set of standard details and options, there is a special policy in the event that
the player either can't produce the balance or wants a refund for a reason outside of the warranty parameters.
In those cases, I will take the guitar back, resell it for them and refund all of their money with the exception
of a brokering fee for the time needed to offer and sell it.

It's happened exactly once in almost 500 guitars and we were both able to walk away happy since he got
100% of his investment back and I was able to sell the guitar for nearly double what he had paid for it.

Be careful to cover your expenses and time so that you're not sitting on a guitar that may prove to be a tough
seller for you....which would likely be the case with a spec rendition of a '58 Gibson "V".

My wife, Paula, who is well known for having much more wisdom and a much more level head than me, has
said to me countless times and especially in recent years, "Your pricing has always been much more fair to your
customers than it has been to me and your children." Many builders' wives would share that sentiment if their
husbands are full time builders and not hobbyists or holding down a well paying day job and building on their
nights and weekends off...and very rightly so in most cases.

This is precisely why she has taken over handling the final pricing or guitars here. As customers call or email
me, we can discuss different options and materials and appointments and even custom inlays and I will give a
casual tally of the cost of each as we do. The final step in that initial process now is for me to drop a note on
the desk for Paula along with a detailed spec/option sheet that has all of the chosen details checked on it.
She then goes to the list of options, materials and appointments that has been compiled over the past 16 years
according to time needed to execute them and material costs to offer them and comes up with the final, official
price for the customer.

It's then that the customer gets to decide whether or not they want to place the order. Most full time builders
have been doing this sort of thing out of necessity for many years and it's just become necessary for me to do
it as well. We've got to take care of our families and our homes and shops in order to be here to build next year.

She's a fun and friendly person to deal with and she's beautiful to boot...and she hasn't scared anyone off yet.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

QFT. That post was absolutely a pleasure to read.

Man, that guy Kevin can type fast! Accurate too!

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I'm with you Howard.

And since I saw the Lion Fretboard Inlay, sheesh, that Kevin, he's got the chops too.

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Thanks Howard. I type too fast most times because I'm posting on the fly....hence the many typos and dropped words.
I do try to be accurate, though.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars