Official Luthiers Forum!

A thread I started recently, asking about back and side wood choices for an instrument that needs a lot of power and projection as well as a bright tone, drew a lot of interest - something like 1000 views - so I though I'd share some of the input I've also gotten from some other sources, specifically about palo escrito. If any of you have experience with palo escrito as a back and side wood and would care to share your observations here as well, that would be great, too.

The instrument in question, still in the design stages, is a unique guitar-bouzouki for an Irish traditional player. He wants it to kick some serious butt as far as power and projection go, and he also wants it to have a bright tone - lots of muscle in the mids and highs. There are many things I'm planning to do to achieve that, and choosing a great back and side wood for the purpose is one of them. I was thinking I'd use maple, but after getting several other great suggestions and discussing/investigating it here and elsewhere, I'm now leaning toward palo escrito.

Palo escrito is a Dalbergia (a "true rosewood") from Mexico. It has incredible ringing, sustaining tap tones, like other great rosewoods, but it is much less dense. Though I would expect maple to contribute tonally in the direction I want to go, I think a wood like this may be just the ticket for helping with both the tone and the power.

Looking for more input from makers with substantial experience using this wood, I contacted Kenny Hill, James Goodall, and Dake Traphagen, as well as a handful of little-known builders whose web sites I stumbled on as I googled around. So far, all the responses I've gotten have been very positive about palo escrito as a great tonewood in general, and an excellent choice for this instrument's sound goals as well.

From James Goodall: "It has a fast response and could be considered bright in tone but has some of the rosewood richness and overtones. Great power and projection."

From Dake Traphagen: "I think Palo Escrito is great wood. It is light weight, stiff, and very resonate when you get a good set... usually makes powerful, lively instruments... I think it would be an excellent choice for your particular project."

Kenny Hill was also affirmative about it being a good choice for this project, and said that it is tonally very similar to Honduran rosewood, which is significant to me because several of you here said you would highly recommend Honduran rosewood.

Gordon Mayer said that, in his experience, it makes a very loud instrument, and that the tone is "bright & penetrating... but, I'd also say that it has good balance and does a good job of representing the bass notes... I find myrtle to be [bright but] well balanced, while maple is bright, and koa and mahogany tend to be less bright than myrtle... I'd put the palo escrito somewhere between myrtle and maple."

No doubt my mileage may vary, but I find all this input informative and encouraging. I'll be building a prototype of another guitar design of mine before I get to this guitar-bouzouki, and I'm thinking I might use palo escrito on it, and make some of my own observations.

Anyone else with input on palo escrito?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd;
I have not built any steels with it but many Classicals & Flamencos!
I love it-very good prices on it right now !
It looks fantastic also!
All of the sets I have used came from Lmii .
They represent thier woods well!

you may want to try www.cervantesguitars.com
He is in this country but has allot of experience with this wood & I think he sells it also!

Mike

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Mike Collins

Thanks, Mike. Can you tell us anything about it's tonal contribution to the guitars you've built with it? And would you agree with the others who say it tends to make very powerful instruments?

LMI had several sets at the GAL convention this summer. A couple of them were quite pretty, but almost every one was flatsawn, and some had little knots and stuff. Has that been typical of the sets you've gotten from them? I just have one set, which I got from Indian River Tonewoods, and it's a beauty: just a couple little knots near the top edge, that will be well outside of the pattern; quarter-to-rift with barely a little flatsawn figure at the very outer edge, which will also be outside the pattern. I'd like to buy a few more sets, and that's the kind of quality I'd be looking for. I don't use flatsawn wood for backs and sides.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd;

It's a very nice wood to use!
I leave the backs .110 +because it's not as heavy or stiff as -Braz. or the other rosewoods!
You have to get some and work with it to find your own place with it!

As with all woods!
Mike

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Mike Collins

Todd,
This one,

my Z1SJ, seems to be loud compared to many of my other builds, especially in the “mid-range”. I’ve been told it also has good “separation” for finger style players.
I can’t say if the Palo Escrito is solely responsible for its “bark” but it could have something to do with it.


Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Thanks, Wade. That's a cool-looking instrument. I'd love to take it for a test drive. Have you made more of that design?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd,
I'm interested in seeing what you do. I have 2 sets from LMI. A little funky weird grain, and I think I might be a little allergic to it.

I have a Palo Escrito classical in the queue now, which I feel like bumping up in the list after reading this discussion.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Terry, I'll keep you posted.

Jim, that's a nice looking set. Did you get that from LMI?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd,
Thanks,
I have not had a chance to make another of that particular shape.
I like to make shapes that I Think should be guitars. Although I wish I had more time to make “test” versions to tweak the tone. I do a lot of guessing and have been lucky that all have ended up sounding like guitars so far.
Its design brings the waist up just past the sound hole and extends the lower bout a bit where as the braces are at fairly normal positioning in relation to the sound hole.
I think this may also be contributing to the Mid-range projection. Just food for thought.
In any event, I don’t think you could go wrong with Palo escrito B&Sides.
If you hear of other sources for this wood other than LMI, let me know.
Keep us in the loop of your progress.

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Here's one of 2 set from LMI I've had for about 3 years

Terry;
That set looks well oxidized!!

I love this wood !

Wade-Beautiful design!
As Tood said I'd love to play it !!!

I jusy had a Flamenco I made with Palo come back in the shop today
just so i could hear it!
The owner a Doc. in Vt. was on his way by here so he dropped in!
Darn thing is loud & clear !
No cracks (he uses a wood stove for heat)
Looks great !
Nice wood!!
Mike

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Mike Collins

Tood?? TOOD???!!!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

TODD !!!!!!!


Sorry sir!
My one finger typing really stinks!



Mike

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Mike Collins

No offense taken at all, Muke!

Thanks for reporting on that flamenco of yours. "Loud and clear"... I like the sound of that!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Yeah, Wade, one of the things I immediately noticed about your shape is how the very high waist puts the bridge close to the center of the large lower bout area. You've also joined the neck at the 13th fret, which shifts the bridge down. My current shapes are designed with some similar ideas. I'm still joining the neck at the 14th, but the waist is high so that the bridge is near the center of the lower bout, more like a traditional 12 fret guitar than a typical 14 fret. I've got the soundhole up quite high, too, with the FB extension overhanging the top of the hole. I haven't yet completed a guitar with one of these shapes, so I can't report on them yet. When I think of the sound of a 12 fret guitar, though... well, it's hard to articulate what I like about them, but I like them a lot. There's a certain warmth, sweetness, richness, beauty, character, and authority (all very vague words, I know) to the sound that gives me the sense that near the center of the lower bout is the "sweet spot" for the bridge. Hence my new designs.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd,
It's kind of interesting some of us are thinking along the same lines. I guess we should build a few to either confirm our suspicions or get it out of our systems.

Thanks again guys,

Our NEL group should extend a meeting to connect with you NY guys!
We are practically neighbors.

New shapes to come..

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Todd - yes, that's an LMI set. I have two more from them but they aren't quite as nice looking. The set in the picture is about 3 years older than the new ones too.

I'm surprised that more vendors don't carry this wood. The price would indicate either lack of demand, or no problem with supply.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu