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So, as I am working thru #2, it has all the features I feel my #1 was missing. I am quite happy with my progress from #1 to #2. But it made me wonder today, why do some guitars end up looking "homemade" while others look more "handmade"? I guess what I mean by that is, even if the workmanship is excellent, sometimes a guitar just looks like it was homemade. While I have seen some where the workmanship was not so good, but it still did not look homemade. Do you think that this has to do with design? layout? tradition vs non traditional? Materials?

I am wondering how a builder becomes inovated yet make it look calculated etc. I don't know if that makes sense, but I thought I would ask anyway?

What makes something look homemade vs handmade (or handcrafted)?

Joe

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Joe

That's an odd distinction in a way, but I think what you are sensing is the craftsmanship applied to the instrument. Years ago I saw a treatise on the difference in a copied piece of artwork by a master compared to a good copiest. The master's work was not a copy but a masterpiece as well. I think it is the same with a handmade piece of craftwork. When the handmade piece is carried out by a quality craftsperson, it will look handmade. While a potentially high quality job by a trained handyperson will look homemade. Never quite living up to the more masterful if less quality done piece. Technically well done, but lacking in piz zazz! Is that what you mean?

I would have to think it has to do with talent ! its like looking at homepages, you can be educated in the field but not have the right feeling, some homepages are properly done but lack a touch of a designers mind. Some can make guitars that are just guitars allthough sounding great and do their job. Then there are those that has both the skill to make a guitar and also the feel for design, and then together it becomes art. just like artists, the guys and girl at the crappy show "idol" they can sing, but, they are not Bob Dylan or or Tom Petty, Elvis or Janis Joplin, since they lack that extra, called, again, Art.

Just my humble opinion

Lars.

Duende!

There is a vibe that is imbued into the work by a craftsperson who truly "gets it", and its something that transcends mere technical skill.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I'm going to disagree!

I think perhaps what is being referred to is that subtle difference between what we expect from a quality instrument and what we sometimes see in 'hobbyist' results. I think typically this is often to do with finish (its amazing how a high qaulity high gloss finish can make a cheap guitar look and feel expensive) - finishing is often the toughest job and a pro finish can HIDE small problems in wood craft - yet a perfectly crafted instruments can be made to look cheap by a poor finish - especially thin satin finishes which are in some cases the most difficult to get right... Its often also about design... many homemade guitars I think look homemade because the maker has deviated from the the standard without perhaps going through a full design process - we see innovation like Parker's archtops, and its easy to think that he must have simpy come up with idea nd buuilt one, but I bet he went through a very vigorous design and prototype phase, probably evolving the designs until it 'looked right' - something that in our amateur desires to build something 'unique' we perhaps overlook? In addition, there is perhaps sometimes a 'chunky' feel to the 'homemade' as builders overbuild - its funny how when you cut wood to the associated dimensions for a guitar, they look way to small/thin? Necks seem to be one area that often feel 'big'

The funny thing is, the very top, creme de la creme, builders might hate me for saying it, but theirs craftmansship is SO VERY good, that its difficult to believe they were made by hand... perhaps thats the true milestone - the point at which the sheer breathtaking quality of the work makes it difficult to believe that its possible to do by hand?

Thankfully for novices like myself, the guitar is actually quite a simple instrument - use good tonewood, take care and follow an established design, you can build something that might look 'homemade, but close your eyes and play and the sound stands up well to most things you can buy from the high end 'manufacturers'.

....Anyway, after looking inside a Gibson Acoustic, would rather have the clean, but homemade look, than the factory rough they seem to get away with!

There's no such thing as talent.

I have to agree with Frank. It's the details that matter and until you've built enough instruments that you've got the basics down, you don't have enough brain power to sweat the details. (yes, I know you're not supposed to do that but it is what makes the difference).

Back to talent. Sweat can overcome a lack of talent. Check this out: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/no ... rs-extract

I remember when I finished my first instrument which I was very proud of but definitely looked home made. In fact, it looked like it was made in Homer Simpson's home. I took it to a guy by the name of Jon Arno, a well known wood scientist and contributor to FWW magazine, to show it off a bit. I took it to him because he's local and he helped me out with some wood selection and ideas etc. He looked at it and said great job, didn't make any negative comments about the workmanship, finish etc. When I finally said that I didn't think the finish was great all he said was "don't worry, it will come as you do more of these". He was right.

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details and esthetics

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I think Frank is right. Most of the homemade guitars have design problems. They just don't quite look 'right'. Not to say that there is a right vs. wrong approach to design, but more of a "these things don't work together" look.

Also, I think your design eye matures, the more you build the more you can see things that don't (or do) work together. It certainly has been an evolutionary process fo rme. Things I thought looked GREAT early on now make me cringe. Maybe in another 10 years what I am doing now will have a similar effect.

I think the key is to be mindful of this and keep building.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I agree as well with those in the design and execution camp .... creating your own style and having it look like it always was around and belongs make a world of difference. But on top of that, a great finish makes a guitar look showroom quality. I always figured if the guitar didnt look as good as any high end guitar, then no matter how great it played or sounded, or how beautiful the woods were, it wasnt a high end guitar.

When coming up with a new and possibly different shape, an eye for line is critical to have. It needs to flow, the curves need to be the right shape, and then the proportions make it all tie together. Couple that with a design scheme that fits - rosette, binding and purfling choice, headstock shape, the right cutaway shape if it has one .. the whole nine yards ... and you will get a great looking guitar that deserves to be called handcrafted, custom made.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I would hope that SOUND is the distinguishing factor.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

I disagree about talent. If you read the definition, it doesn't start with it being innate or inborn. But, I think we all tend toward things we have an ability to focus on and enjoy. Thus we build our talents in those areas. As the hockey in Canada reference, it makes sense that the most capable would receive the most coaching. The most coached will end up the most talented of the bunch.

In my family my father was a very capable and I'd say talented craftsman. Of all of my siblings, I am the only one that has expressed that in his work and/or hobbies. I showed aptitude and interest, so we did things together.

Now I have struggled to get a great finish on my second instrument, but it is now coming together, so the sweat part of the exercise is showing merit in that case. I've never done a "mirror-like" finish on wood, but I am learning. Much because of this forum and information freely shared.

So perhaps I'm arguing that talent is a combination of aptitude, desire, and training.

But back to the point, I think it is design, execution, and talent (using above definition) that gives an instrument that special prized look.

I'm with the finish and design crowd. Nearly every instrument in a guitar store has a good to great finish on it and an aesthetically accepted design. By good to great I mean it's shiny, even, and uniform. When I've designed instruments, the ones that received the most immediate praise were the designs where I started with an accepted design (a set of lines which I knew were aesthetically accepted) and worked from there. From there the trick is knowing which differences are differences and which are 'flaws'

Talent is knowing where your aptitudes lie and then finding something where they converge. The truly great are people who figured out what was easy for them early on, and then ran with it. The value of mentors is hard to account for, but definitely real, as well. And then it gets worse as mentors are more likely to put more time into the most talented students, etc, etc!

I think it's easy enough to find examples of people in this industry who have been building relatively short times who are making instruments superior in all regards to others who have been building many times longer, so it isn't simply a matter of putting in your time.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

It all boils down to execution. Not only in the joinery, but also in the composition, and how the various components work with each other. Almost every craft has both a craftsmanship and artistry aspect. The craftsmanship aspect can be learned through repetitive tasks. Artistry requires a sense of composition, how features work artistically with their companion components.

Very often, in fact most of the time it is not the complexity of the design that makes a piece of woodworking stand out as good design but rather well planed simplicity.

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. I challenge you to find one of these luthiers and say to his or her face that they didn't work hard at it and their instruments are superior because they have a gift. I guarantee you that all of these short timers spent a lot of time learning to do what they do to get the results they get. And I don't mean just building. Building without thinking and analyzing won't provide results just like you say.




If talent isn't innate or inborn, then I must agree with your definition of talent. I tend to think that most people feel that what "talented" individuals achieve is due to a gift and not hard work. If there's any gift that is real, it's the ability to spend the time you need to learn what you want to do. No one gets a free lunch.

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I'm not familiar enough with this industry, but when I graduated from HS I wanted to work a year before going to college. I got a job as a picture framer helper. Basically sweep the floors, and put wire on the frames when they were done. In one year I exceeded the abilities of the master framer at the shop. In two years I exceeded what many with 20+ years could do. Both my designs and executions were stunning (if I say so myself... and many customers gave them rave reviews). So I think there is something innate that allows one to build the talent in a craft or anything else. Therefore I think, like I said, talent is the convergence of many things. So to be a great luthier I would say you would need a feel for wood, finish, music, asthetic balance, etc. Without those things, one might end up producing admirable instruments, but not the top end.

Well, that's the million dollar question, isn't it?

I'm in the finish and careful attention to detail camp. I've seen and played some very fine guitars by many members of this board. Fit, finish, and of course, playability is what sets them appart, IMO.

The first thing one notices is the looks. If a guitar looks like it was made in a factory, then you know the person making this instrument is wound up a bit too tightly! But, that's what it takes. It takes a certain commitment to excellence and a certain stuborness to not give up until something is perfect. I've heard of guys machining/producing 7-8 bingings in the horn of a venetian cutaway and not giving in until the fit was absolutely air tight. At that point, some would have said, 'Well, just a little filler, saw dust, CA, and that will be fine...'

Then there's playability. You can have a dog that plays like a dream, so then, at least, you have an instrument. You could also possibly find a gorgeous, perfectly executed guitar that's hard to play... I seriously doubt this would happen, however, but in the rare case that it would, then all you'd have is an expensive, shinny piece of wood that's good for nothing.

Don't get me wrong, there are wonderful sounding 'home made' guitars out there. Some are even fantastic 'players' too, but it all boils down to what you want out of it. Do you want to sell guitars and compete with the top builders, or do you just want to enjoy a hobby, build instruments and have a great time accomplishing something you love... If you want to go big, then you'd better never compromise, because the Krakenbrink's and the Karol's sure don't.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Thanks for the replys everyone! I think each of you hit on the topic perfectly. In the end, I think execution (of wood and finish) as well as estetically pleasing designs are king.

Joe

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Joe

Obviously I don't know you but I'll bet you're underestimating the time and effort you spent developing your eye and design sense prior to getting your framing job.

I think that many also underestimate the amount of skills that are transferable from one activity to another. I have a degree in engineering but now work in sales. There's not a day goes by that I don't use the skills and concepts I learned in engineering school to help me close deals. Being able to transfer these learned skills helped me exceed my first year sales quota and end up in 5th place on the "leaderboard" nationally....that and a lot of 60 hour weeks!! There are also those who think it just comes naturally to me....it certainly doesn't!!

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Alain has some great points in there .....

In the last year, I have completely ripped out top binding/purfling and redone ... on an armrest no less ... I have removed and tossed an entire top on a completed body, because I couldnt stand the rosette anymore (one of my own personal guitars). I had shown it to some and commented on how I didnt like a certain line in it and they would respond - "That ?? .. you are kidding right ??, I dont see it - looks fine to me." Well, they look at it now and go "That looks amazing." I had someone tell me last week at a local fingerstyle open mike that it was possibly the best guitar he had ever played. That blew me away.

Sometimes, its all the little things that go beyond fit finish tone and playability. But they had better be there too ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

That's right - it's all about expectations and this is where personal standards as well as knowledge, skill, and craftsmanship, come into play. If a builder has high expectations and personal standards as well as the chops and ability to execute the outcome is likely to be pretty special.

So I am going to throw this question out there: Where is that bar for you? I am not speaking of where everyone knows your name but more over what are your expectations and personal standards as to what a great guitar is?

Several months ago I had the opportunity to sit in the moldy, rattling, and empty humidifier room at a Guitar Center with a couple excellent builders. I watched them as they tried the top-of-the-line Martin's, Gibson's, Taylor's, and Breedlove's. Nothing flipped anyone's switch so-to-speak and it was almost as if they didn't want to get anything that might come off these guitars on them........ These guys had very high standards for what a great guitar should be and it included fit/finish, craftsmanship, tone, playability AND the overall impression or statement that a particular guitar made.

So to me it's all about what you are trying to achieve. If your goal is to make a decent guitar - great this is very doable (if doable is a word). If your goal is a world class guitar be sure to do what ever it takes for you to understand what a world class guitar is. you may find that the learning process as to how you perceive excellence as well as the learning process when it comes to your chops never ends - because it never will.

In looking at my own first guitar I'm currently working on, I would definitely agree with the notion that it is the ability to appreciate the aesthetics, apply them appropriately, and execute them with precision. I recently met a luthier who brought in one of his first. I have to say, there was a certain clunkiness about it, and the finish was poor. Those made it look homemade.

I think as others have said, the finish may be one of the single biggest factors. If you go into any high school woodshop, sanding and finishing is generally the one thing all the kids try to avoid putting any time in. When that is the case, I think that really makes the entire project look like no effort was put into it.

Andy, while I would agree that talent is often given more than it's share of credit, it does exist. I used to think that I couldn't play the guitar very well because I didn't have "musical talent". I started thinking about it one day at thought that maybe I was doing a disservice to the amount of work those "talented" individuals had. I told my guitar instructor about it and he related a story of a kid he had instructed who seemed to be just gifted, learning faster than anyone he'd ever been around. He asked him one time how much he'd practiced in an average week. The reply...30 hours. So certainly there was a lot of work in his "talent".

However, I think one could also do a disservice to the amount of effort the guy who got the silver in any of Michael Phelps' events. He worked as hard as he could, prepared in every way he could to win, but apparently, Michael had a gift that made him just a little better. He didn't rely on that "talent" to win, he worked his butt off, however there was a difference between him and the also-ran.

So maybe many of our talents or lack thereof goes unfulfilled due to lack of effort, and I believe that even the lack of effort can be induced by believing that having no talent means we cannot be great. So I understand where you're coming from.

Darrin

Hesh,

We've been around this one lots. I think it's a personal thing. Every time I'd rather make an instrument that the owner can't put down and stop playing rather than one they can't stop looking at. Instruments have a soul that speaks to the player - that's what put's them apart from just being a fine piece of furniture.

There's other stuff that drives me in making instruments that touches on the design and aesthetic elements but that has as much to do with my own pride, interests, motivations and possible OCD. If I get that right but the instrument has no "soul" then it's back to being another piece of furniture. The fit and finish thing to me is a little overplayed and in some ways a false god - I've played an awful lot of hand made instruments that looked stunning but when I played them said nothing to me. The finish has to be done by me - that's just the way I am.

So to answer your question - my goals are to make instruments that sound good, look good and are a constant joy to play. My criteria for success is that my instruments take their owners playing to higher levels through their responsiveness, tone and playability no matter what level of playing they are currently at.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I got a free lunch. I didn't even develop any study skills until I was in grad school. And I got into that on the recommendation of a professor who said I had the worst work ethic he'd ever seen for mathematics, but that I should still be accepted based on talent. I did four years of last minute assignments, skipped lots of classes and still ended up on the Dean's List during my last term. It would be insulting to the people who worked much harder than I did and couldn't get the same results to say that I had no innate advantage.

I have told said luthiers to their face. They work hard, don't get me wrong, but their results relative to the hours they've put in are ahead of the curve. I don't know anyone who'd be insulted to be told that they were outperforming the curve. Nobody is born knowing how to use a chisel or play a piano etc etc, but some people pick up certain skills and sets of skills much faster and easier than others. Or, conversely: some people can achieve the same level of aptitude as others with less work whether that be measured as effort or hours.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Hesh - I think every one of us knows what our respective challenges are, and as such, my bar is simple, yet very high, and happens to be the same as Grit Laskin's, seeing as I stole this from him -

"The next one will be BETTER."

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

First off, let me explain that I've probably exaggerated somewhat for effect due to my frustrations with my music students who constantly complain that they're not getting any better in spite of their lack of practice .

Second, let's look at some definitions because some of this to me looks like miscommunication.

Aptitude comes up as a "natural ability" or "capacity for learning" according to M-W. So, aptitude is something you're born with and can't change. I do understand that we're all born with different aptitudes.

Talent comes up as " a: a special often athletic, creative, or artistic aptitude b: general intelligence or mental power " which actually sounds like pretty much the same thing. So perhaps the term I'm looking for is "skill" which comes up as " a learned power of doing something competently"

All that I'm trying to say is that "aptitude" is what you need to show up to the race. Hard work is what differentiates the winners from the pack fill. So, the combination of aptitude and hard work is how you build a skill.

The final point is that no mater what your aptitude is, if you want to improve your skill so that your stuff looks hand made instead of home made, work at it by putting in the hours - analyzing, learning, doing.

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http://banduramaker.blogspot.com