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being new to this ive been wondering why oak isnt considered a tonewood or a species that is used in constuction of guitars. is it to hard on tooling to work? does it not glue well? to heavy? tend to warp, split, check out? we have an alot of it here in florida on the ground for the taking from the recent hurricanes. it seems a waste that such a strong wood would not be usable for heel and neck blocks, purfling, bridge or fingerboards. any wood experts out there with any why or why nots?

I would suggest oak could well be used for backs and sides. The more traditional woods for the other uses you suggested. Think John Arnold built an oak guitar for Norman Blake which was reported to sound quite nice.

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

There is a REALLY nice looking curly flatsawn red oak plank at my local woodpile that's been calling my name for about a month now - some great heart-sap contrast and big bold curl all the way across, I almost took it for bubinga. I may just give in and give it a shot....

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

Red oak has big pores to fill, and I have heard luthiers say they have a difficult time selling Oak guitars ('cause they look like furniture or cabinetry.)

However, pores can be filled, and I too have seen some gorgeous curly Red Oak. Southern Red Oak often has dark mineral streaks, and often has annular rings much further apart than its Northern cousin (the preferred cabinet/furniture wood.) I made my wife a huge picture frame from curly Red Oak (with Walnut corner blocks), and it looks excellent even after a dozen years.

Now, curly White Oak is a different story, because the pores are tiny, and the wood is creamy off-white and tan colors without the pinks and reds of Red Oak. Bob Cefalu had some really beautiful sets a while ago, and Grant Goltz got numerous billets of curly White Oak as a karmic repayment for helping a neighbor cut down a big tree that the owner was afraid would fall on his house. I have some of that, but haven't built anything with it yet.

Al Carruth can chime in if he wants (especially if I am misquoting/mis-paraphrasing him), but I think he said the Oaks resemble some Rosewoods in terms of taptone.

So, I say, go for it, if it is quartersawn. Now, a flatsawn board of a species with a tangential shrinkage of 8.6% (that's for Northern Red Oak; it is over 11% for Southern Red Oak), I personally would avoid for backs and sides, but maybe a laminated neck?

Dennis

p.s. Oh yeah, if it is close to 90° quartersawn, you get the medullary rays ("flake") that is prominent is American antique furniture. Add that to curl, and you have some very interesting and exotic tonewood.

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I'm hoping it can be used, I have two sets of flamed white oak, one three piece back and one two. I bought boards on ebay and resawed it. I haven't seen it sold in sets (yet).
Todd Cambio, Fraulini Guitars, makes a lot of guitars of oak.

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thanks for the 411. ive got some quartered with a chainsaw lumber maker that i had intended to use for jigs, small frames and such. its very expensive as we all know to buy for a domestic wood, but readily available, lieing since hurricaine charlie. the locals call it live oak, laurel, and quite alot of scrub oak. it all has a golden hue to it. it seems to like a sharp chainsaw and strong back, but luckily i have both. havent tryed to resaw any yet but i dont antisipate to much trouble. i know and older gentleman that was a wooden boatbuilder in the chesapeak bay area that says it bends nicely

Check out this thread from the archives. I loved the sound of this build.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=14723&p=209285&hilit=+white%2C+oak#p209285


Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

One of my favorite guitars is an old no name parlor with what looks like red oak back and sides, it looks cool and unique and sounds great, and it is about 100 years old and is not majorly cracked or warped. To me oak seems a little bit heavy for blocks or necks, but it can be successful for backs and sides, and several solidbody builders use it for bodies, mostly basses.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Old man thats a beautiful guitar. How could anyone not like oak when its used like that.I have a nice curly white oak back and side set in the shop that i bought a while back from RC tonewoods. I'm thinking maybe i'll build a nice OM or parlor size guitar with it in the future.

Steve Wheeler is building a red oak guitar right now (the one with the checkered binding).

You can build a guitar from anything. The main reason oak is not used is marketing. People are so used to seeing oak floors, furniture, etc they don't think of oak as a high end guitar. Oak is a commodity

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John Ressler

I have a set of curly white burr oak in my stash, it is beautiful wood and means much to me because it was sent as a gift from the best friend I never met.

Thanks Dennis

Mark Beneteau has just introduced a new model that features white oak. He's going to have one at Montreal, so I'll hopefully see it there.

Here's a link to his page:
http://www.beneteauguitars.com/

Neil

I hope you don't mind some pictures. I've made 2 with white oak - one Englishman and one Lutz top. I like the sound and I don't think it looks much like furniture.

Perhaps if we start calling it Quercus alba, it will work better commercially.

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The ebay seller I bought mine from specialized in oak with flames, curl, and rays, quartersawn. It is not too expensive, the shipping is a big part of the deal. He'll cut it down to length, he tries to ship USPS.

Maybe I can dredge up his contact info.

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Another vote for oak here. I would use quartersawn only and lean towards white oak due to smaller pores (but would not exclude red oak ). I have built one guitar with white oak including the neck, but if weight was an issue, I would not use it for necks. I am not good at describing sound, but it sure makes nice tonewood,,, great tone, balance, and punch. So, if you have some nice quartersawn oak, use it, you won't be disappointed.

Chuck

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You are most welcome, my friend! That wood did indeed come from Grant, and so you literally know its lineage from the tree to your hands. Looking forward to seeing the beauty you'll craft from it! And, we WILL meet in person! It's just such a long drive and swim from Duluth MN USA to Perth Australia - but it will happen!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I made a 'matched pair' of classicals, using oak and Brazilian rosewood for the B&S, and matching everything else as closely as possible, about 12-15 years ago. The oak back ended up being heavier than the rosewood one, due to the fact that it was a really curly piece, which made it denser and less stiff than usual. Oak has higher damping (it doesn't ring as long when tapped) than Rosewood, too. In the end the oak guitar was not quite as loud (due to the heavier back?) and lacked the 'ping' in the trebles (due to the higher damping?) compared with the BRW one. However, they were both nice guitars, and the difference was not all that great.

I'm a big fan of quartered oak for steel string guitars, particularly smaller ones like OMs and 000s. Flat cut oak lacks cross grain stiffness, so I have never used it. Besides I really like that strong ray pattern.

That, of course, is the thing that makes them hard to sell; they look like middle-class Victorian or Craftsman style furniture. I LIKE Victorian furniture, but some folks don't, and don't like guitars that look like it. Rosewood guitars look like furniture too: they just look like high-end Empire style stuff. What can I say.

Somebody suggested that we call it 'Norwegian Rosewood'.

What about Appalachian Rosewood?

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

I think if we could get specific info about the actual species of Oak.... we could get somewhere with "Tone" properties

Reason being is that there are about 400 species of Oak between "Red" and "White" oak lumber. I have "Red" oak boards that are super Hard, heavy, dense, and small pored... and I have "Red" oak boards that are soft, lighter, less dense, and very large pored. Same for "White" oak.

We would go nuts if the wood suppliers wanted to sell us "Brown" Rosewood or "Black" rosewood.... then just separated all the boards into "Brown" and "Black" piles regardless of Species.... and this is what they do with Oak.... Kinda like buying SPF 2x4's.... Sure, you can tell it is either Spruce, Pine, or Fir pretty easily... but.... Which Species of Spruce???

Thanks

John

I've heard that Old Ironsides is made from Liveoak and the canon balls were said to bounce off it. So you might expect Liveoak to be pretty hard and dense. Also Liveoaks are a pretty twisty tree so I'm not sure how that will fall into things. Scrub oaks? They suck as a oak tree to have in your yard. They shed branches like hair and produce a lot of pollen and tree trash and leaves. Jacaranda is what you want to find fallen down here. You might want to talk to Mike Brittain about these oaks as he knows a lot about the trees down here.

Fylde guitars in the UK make a model from recaimed Whisky Barrel Oak... interesting.

... oh and relclaimed scorched Oregon Pine tops

Those old war ships also had 24" or thicker, effectively solid, oak hulls.

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http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Just wait until you see Steve Wheelers! I was at his shop this weekend, and WOW! Oak back and sides with a Cherry neck. Just taping on it, it sounds like a canon. Steve has really been turning out nice guitars, and this oak one is a beaut!!!

PS: He also let me steel a little of his checkard board inlay material for use on my ukes rossett. It turned out awesome! Pics soon.

Joe

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Joe

The oak in Old Ironsides was cut locally in New England, so it was not live oak. There was an oak tree that grew down the street from where I used to live, in Dedham, Mass., which the Avery family refused to sell to the Navy to use as 'ships knees' on the Constitution. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled that the family did not have to sell the tree. It stood until 1958, iirc, when a hurricane finally blew it down. You can still see the dip in the lawn where the stump is rotting away.

If you visit the ship in the yard at Charlestown, you can see a cutaway section of what the hull construction is. They used 14" square oak frames, 15" on center. The hull was double planked inside and out with, iirc, 2" thick planks. The spaces between the frames were packed with rock salt, as a preservative.

BTW, the Spanish ships of the line that took part in the Great Armada of 1588 were built _entirely_ of Cuban mahogany. They were much larger than 'Old Ironsides', and more heavily built. Now you know where all that wood went.

In colonial and early Federal times, the New Hampshire economy was based on the masting trade. They cut pine trees up to a couple of hundred feet tall for this. A few years ago, when I wanted some clear pine to trim out a room I was renovating, what the local yard had was imported frm New Zealand. Sic transit.....