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Hi All,

One thing i have never read anywhere concerning staining, was how to apply the top coat over stained wood. My fault for being ignorant, and this post is to inform those of you who may not know, DO NOT go directly into french polishing without first getting a base on the stained wood. What I did was go directly into french polishing and I destroyed my "antique" stain job as the colors started bleeding together from the alcohol in the pad. So in short order my top was to a point where I had to stop and completely sand it down clean as I could and start over. I also honestly think I'm done with the staining thing. I suppose if I build enough guitars I'll get good at it... or just start with wood that the stain is trying to look like!

Dave

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God, Family, Carreer

Sorry to hear about your finishing problem Dave. It's always something isn't it. For myself, building guitars has truly helped me to understand the concept of "infinity". As I try to enumerate the endless number of ways I find to keep a guitar from playing, sounding and looking as it should.

On your staining problem, I take it you used an oil based stain? I have stained tops using trans-tint dyes diluted with water and then used rub coats of shellac to seal. I guess the lesson is to do tests on scrap to see what is going to work.

Joe

Hi Joe,

Your not going to believe this, but it was your guitar that gave me the idea to try this. The back/sides and neck turned out great. I actually really went for that "built it out of just some old wood" look and really worn. I used Stewart Martin's dye, diluted it with alcohol on the application, had it really looking antique and used! It fell apart so fast! I should have maybe used the oil for a top coat like you did. I think after all the rework is done, I'm still going to have enough shady spots and it will be OK (I hope).

So after a year, how does that OM with the wild bracing sound?

Dave

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God, Family, Carreer

Uh Oh!
I guess that'll teach ya!
I bet your mama told you about "bad" influences.

Well I think the problem came about because you diluted with the alcohol and I just used water, (cheap bastard that I am). So the alcohol in the shellac opened up your stain coats. I've been tempted to try the alcohol stain because I've run into problems on some other tops where the water based stain caused some real uneven splotchy results and I had to sand to try to even out. I think the alcohol stain might lay down more evenly, but who knows. It's a crap shoot for sure, but John How sure gets some nice results, and sometimes I do too, just wish it were more predictable. Usually when mine heads south and I leave the shop in frustration, I find the top looks much better the next day and a little sanding/restaining experimentation gets it presentable, but not necessarily the look I was shooting for. So keep an open mind and be flexible.

My build from a year ago, it's actually a Grand Concert size, is sounding great and not showing any signs of deformation. So sometimes we get lucky!

Joe

Dave, Joe, the solution to a splotchy dye on the top is an airbrush. You can get a cheap one for under a hundred bucks. It is also the solution to rubbing the stain around. Before F/P, just shoot a couple of coats of finish on the top. Sure, it's $100. but how many tops do you screw up before you hit $100 in labor.

That makes sense Haans, I'm going to have to play with that. It sure works on your mandolins and guitars! I've even got a couple of old airbrushes I'd picked up from my artist days I can give a try.

Thanks,
Joe

Yea, just open 'er up, and hold the airbrush back about 1-2 feet. Mix up a solution on the weak side and you can slowly blend it in and up to the amount of color you want. S'wat I did on the parlor...
It just sits more on the surface of the spruce rather than rubbing in...

Is it ok if I ask a related question? I'm currently building an all mahogany guitar. I've got transtint brown mahogany dye, and have been doing some tests. I'm leaning towards french polish to finish it.

So I took some offcuts, sealed them with a 1lb cut of blonde shellac, and then applied a diluted alcohol/dye mixture over top of that, and then sealed it again. It seemed too easy...it looks perfect.



This is just a little piece. When I do the whole guitar am I going to get splotchy unevenness, if I continue with pore fill and french polish on top of what I have here, just like you did, Dave?

My problem, or worry, with the test-on-scrap idea is that I only have dinky scrap. I don't have a scrap guitar.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Martin, on mahogany backs and sides, I brush a couple of coats of lacquer on the center strips and purflings, then just rub the dye in and fill. Scrape the lacquer off after, shoot a couple of coats of whatever to seal it up and then do your build coats. You won't get a splotchy look rubbing in the dye on mahogany; the important part is to seal it up well enough before you F/P. I'm not too crazy about sealing the wood before the dye as I think it masks the grain a bit, but if you don't trust yourself I guess it's the safe way to go.

Progress on my build has been going slowly, but I'm nearing the finish stage. And in the past month or so, I've tried various things on various pieces of scrap. I got good results on test pieces doing 2 coats of 1-lb-cut blonde shellac to seal. then I wiped on brown-mahogany-transtint-dye-diluted-with-alcohol. It looks ok, although I have to work it abit sometimes to get the stain color to look even.

is the alcohol in my diluted dye mixture interfering with my seal coats too much? I like the idea of putting dye on the wood first, and then sealing, but on a mahogany top, will the dye darken the pores, and even bleed thru to the inside of the guitar?

here's my most recent test. 2 seal coats of blonde shellac, followed by a wipe-on application of diluted brown mahogany dye. then, a wipe-on application of red mahogany dye. i like the color, but it was buggers to make the stain look even. in fact, it kinda doesn't.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."