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I'm getting ready to finish my first guitar and since I don't have any spray equipment or facilities I'll need to brush it on. In another thread it was mentioned that varnish might be the best way to go for a brush finish. I have some questions and I didn't want to highjack that thread, so I thought I would start my own. Here goes......

I've read several threads about brushing water based lacquer such as Target Coatings EM6000 and it seams some folks have had good success with hit, although some have had problems with a bluish tint in the finished product. Does varnish offer advantages over water based lacquer?

I know the lacquer offers the benefit of "burn-in", making it possible to repair without witness lines. How is varnish in this respect?

I think I've read that there may be tonal advantages to a varnish finish over some others. Can anyone confirm (or dispute) that?

Aside from the possible blue tint with EM6000, I believe it is quite clear. Is the varnish clear as well or does it have an amber tint to it?

Is Rockhard the best choice for a brushed finish or are there other good varnish options as well?

Finally, I'm not sure whether there are multiple Rockhard products...is this the right stuff?

http://www.amazon.com/Behlen-Rockhard-Table-Varnish-Quart/dp/B0037MGIIG

Sorry for all the questions. And thanks in advance for any advice.

Charlie

You might ask John Parchem about brushing KTM-SV. He is currently finishing a guitar by brushing that product and appears to be having good results.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Charlie,

That's the stuff I use. I get good results, but like with anything else, there's a learning curve. Search here for Alan Carruth's posts on the Behlen's.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I think EM6000 is a good product for those who don't have professional spray booths with explosion proof fans & all the other equipment that you need to use these products safely. If you do want to use nitro, you could always just spray outside of course...

EM6000 is *mostly* clear. I have a couple bodies that I've been working on & they were nice and clear right up until the temperatures dropped a few degrees here in the mid-atlantic (my shop is in an unheated but insulated garage that shares a wall with our wood stove). They did take on a bit of a haze...hopefully they will clear up once they are brought back into slightly warmer temps?

Here are a few tips if you do use EM6000:
*You should expect to spray about 18 coats in order to get a final build of about .005" after buffing
*if you wait longer than 1 day in between coats, rough up the existing finish with 400 grit
*wait 3 days minimum after final coat for sanding
*I dry sand with 400, then wet sand with 600, 1200, and 2000 before buffing.
*I've been pore filling with LMI's water based filler with good results
*I use a seal coat of shellac after pore filling

I'm certainly still learning as well, but hopefully this will shorten your learning curve if you decide to go this route as well. It is certainly possible to get a nice finish using this lacquer.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I am not an expert and I am not quite finished with my project brushing on KTM-SV, a water based spar varnish. I am starting to get good results but it took a lot of trial and error (and lots of sanding before I was happy).

For prep I sanded everything down to 220 making sure I only had 220 sanding scratches. I pore filled with z-poxy; 4 or 5 complete applications on the back and sides, level sanding between each application. I just kept going until the pores were filled and followed that with one more application.

I had problems with full strength KTM-SV. It set up to quickly and did not flow out. I added just a bit of water to the varnish maybe 1 part to 10. In any case I added enough that it made a noticeable difference in the consistency of the varnish.
For application of a varnish with a brush, erase from your mind the concept of brushing, basically you are going to slide a film of varnish on in strips.

Put the brush (a good brush maybe a 2" golden taklon ) about halfway in the finish for a second or two. Hold it at an angle and let most of the finish drip off. With the brush moving a bit touch down on the guitar 2 to 3 inches from one in the guitar and slide the brush watching the flow to the other size. When approaching the side slowly start to raise the brush to make a smooth takeoff at the end of the guitar. Reverse your direction and slide on the same strip toward your origination slide ultimately picking up the small pool of finish where you started and finish the strip to the end. Finish the area you are working on strip by strip. One thing to avoid is trying to fix areas with a brush after you are finished. You will just muck it up.

The photos are from just after an application has dried and not sanded. You can see slight brush marks on the back, but I can nock them off with a light sanding with a 500 grit pad.

It is not a sprayed finish but I think it will look ok.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

I have used both Behlen's and the EM6000. Both with good results.

I have ended up settling on the EM6000.

I found the Behlen's really makes the wood come alive. But it is very yellow. And there is a smell that some people don't care for.

Now I use Z-poxy as a pore filler. This pops the wood a bit and makes it come alive. Then I brush the EM6000 over that. Without the Z-poxy, I find the EM6000 pretty dull and lifeless. The blue tinge was only an issue so far for me on a black top guitar. You can see the blue on that but otherwise I have not had an issue.

I think you can get a good finish with either product. But with all finishes, it is the prep and pore filler before the finish that makes all the difference. The smoother a flawless the surface before you start finishing, the better the end result will be.

Getting a good finish is maybe the hardest part of the build in my opinion. It took me 8 or 9 guitars before I started to be happy with my finishes.

Neil

I've tried the Behlens. Not too enamoured with the smell or the Greenish cast it gives to light coloured inlays.
I removed the stuff. It does seem a tough finish though.

Tastes vary…
I love the smell of Rockhard, however I stopped using it because of colour inconsistencies between cans. But it's an excellent finish, if a little dark, and very forgiving.
The best oil varnish for guitars I know of is Epifanes clear varnish, it has a beautiful light amber colour, is high is solids content and flows very well.
Oil varnish is not a choice, it's a lifestyle.
There is a learning curve to every type of finish, none is perfect and none is easy.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Hey Laurent
Does the Epifanes clear varnish have the same smell as something like Behlen's Rockhard?

Neil

Ah, the smell of linseed and turpentine in the morning!

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Searching for Epifanes, I found a marine spar varnish product. Is that what you use, Laurent, or is there another (indoor) formula?

Bart Hovis

A little bit, although more tung-oily, like Waterlox. I love the smell of either one.
I wouldn't eat breakfast without it. Tomorrow try turps in your coffee, instead of milk.
Spar means long oil varnish, i.e. more oil, less resins. A short oil varnish is the opposite, more resins, less oils. As far as I know both Rockhard and Epifanes are tung oil based. Epifanes sells an accelerator for their clear varnish, which is essentially a mix of resins, transforming the spar into a medium to short oil varnish. I mix them 1:1. Works great.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Wow! Thanks to EVERYONE for the great responses!!

Trev – thank you for the details and tips on EM6000. I had originally planned to use EM6000 but the stuff I have is about 18 months old now and I read recently that the shelf is about 6 months. So, rather than just buying more EM6000 I thought I would take this opportunity to do a little more research and make sure I'm happy with my choice.

John Parchem – thank you for the great and detailed info on KTM-SV. Have you found it to be clear or does it have a bit of an amber tint to it?

Neil – I’m really hoping to find a finish that is NOT yellow, so I appreciate you sharing your experience with Behlens vs. EM6000. I also like the idea of the epoxy pore fill so I’m glad to hear you have had success with that.

Laurent – as always, your responses are very helpful! Much appreciated. I will have a look at the Epifanes clear varnish. One additional question about varnish in general…how is it to repair? Does it have the same burn-in capability that lacquer does? If not, how does one repair dings and scratches? The guitars I’m working on right now are for my teenage sons, so I’m guessing repairs will be needed at some point.

IMHO the ease of repairing lacquer is a tale: the repair will always shrink faster than the surrounding lacquer and will show after a few months, if not weeks. Even if you take the time to let it cure a month.
Oil varnish is a totally different beast. You can minimise witness lines (up to disappearance if you're skilled or lucky) by mixing the varnish with acetone. If you're in a hurry, medium and/or thin CA do a decent job providing you let it cure long enough and don't heat the finish too much on the buffer.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

That's interesting about using CA to repair finish. I will remember that one. I assume you would probably not want to use accelerator on it.

Thanks Laurent!