Official Luthiers Forum!

Unbelievable.
What a sad state of affairs.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

+1

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Jim Hansen

Chuck has been educating us very well . Just for some self entertainment I asked all the sellers on ebay if they did have CITIES paperwork. I can tell you that 2 responded . Only 1 had real documentation. I can also tell you that one seller that I had a personal experience is selling wood , calling it BRW that isn't.
True CITIES will have a seal and release information .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I think too much is being read into this Chuck:

Other Lacey Act Basics

1:The underlying foreign law violation does not have to be a criminal violation, nor one actively enforced in the foreign country.

OK, so the violation does not need to be criminal violation nor does it matter if the foreign country who wrote the law chooses to turn a blind eye and not enforce it, under Lacey, the USA can still proceed because there is a law...'but' a violation must still take place and that does not appear to have happened in this instance.

2: The underlying violation need not be committed by the person charged with violating the Lacey Act –a third party might have taken the product illegally.

As far as I am aware this did not happen either. LMI demonstrated appropriate 'due care' as required under Lacey when they had sort clarification specifying the very product involved in this shipment and were advised by the Indian Government that the shipping of Indian rosewood and ebony fretboard blanks did not violate their trade laws.

3: The underlying foreign law can be interpreted by U.S. Courts

Yes, these laws 'can' be interpreted by the "U.S. Courts", but 'not' by the USFWS. The courts are given this power because, unlike the FWS, they are bound by due process and would not be foolish enough to attempt to interpret a foreign law without prior consultation and qualified opinion to confirm the purpose and/or intent of those laws. To do so without that qualification would be certain to invite challenge of any ruling handed down based upon those interpretations. In other word, whilst under Lacey the U.S. Courts can make their own interpretations of foreign law, it does not mean they can do so without due consideration of the intent of those foreign governments when drafting their laws, and once that letter of clarification from the Indian Government made its way up to the bench, all the clarity and qualification required to allow the FWS case to be interpreted as the complete blunder it is will have been delivered....I don't see that anything has changed, Lacey is not special in this, courts deal with extradition orders all the time and the interpretation of foreign laws is a big part of that process....more times than not, common sense prevails

Cheers

Kim

Almost spewed my morning coffee as it reminded me of an Arlo Guthrie song, "The Pause of Mr. Clause" .

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

So what should Mr Schramm do?

I shipped two guitars from Michigan, destined for Berlin last month via USPS that never arrived. Now I am wondering if my documentation was incomplete on the customs form. Or possibly complete but percieved as erroneous. The woods were maple with Mahogany kerfed linings.

Is there a cost effective way to export guitars or parts such as a shipping agent for the small shop luthier? Insuring the product for its full value is not really what I am after as I am sure any craftsperson or artist would clearly understand.

Chuck and everyone, I really appreciate the information that you pass on here.

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Ken

What declaration form(s) did you use? Were there any shell inlays, ivory or bone parts? Any Brazilian rosewood parts? Was it handled by a broker?

UPS has in-house broker services on exports if shipped Express or Expedited (not Ground) for about $125.00 ($95.00 more if USFWs clearance is involved for wildlife materials); FedEx supplies brokerage service only on imports. DHL is something I'm checking on this week. USPS requires using an outside broker for imports or exports, which can run around $250.00 (USFWS clearance $95.00 more). Add to the above the shipping and insurance costs. It's not cheap!

Thank you Chuck. To answer the question it is the Costoms form from USPS that I completed. The guitar was actually just a body and was listed as guitar parts to make a guitar. The only woods were Maple and Mahogany. The cost to ship a 15 lb box was around $90.00 and it included insurance. USPS admitted it was lost somewhere in Germany. The problem is they don't track past the US.

Although this might seem like a different problem, somehow I suspect there are is a red flag in "guitar parts" in a box.

edit, By the way, I was told after filing a claim that the United States Post Office does not handle anything outside the US. I was told that it goes by UPS. USPS has no aircraft.

And one more thing... if anyone who frequents ebay sees this, please email me. Thanks. Probably in German.

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Ken

A couple of things could have happened other than just being lost: 1) If woods were not declared by common and Latin names, along with the country of origin, the mahogany could have been mistaken for bigleaf mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) which is a CITES Appendix II material -- your guitar shipment wouldn't require the USDA/APHIS PPQ-505 form if a "personal effect", but it would if a commercial activity (and the form requires using an "entry filer code" number, only available by using a broker). 2) If the German recipient didn't have proper papers or permits at their end it could also cause problems. And...it may yet show up!

Good luck.

I have shipped to Netherlands, UK, Israel, France, Greece, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Italy all without problems.

Thanks again Chuck, that clears up a lot on my end. I will now include the latin and common names. I hope it shows Good luck to all small builders.

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Ken

Ken the USPS no longer has their own planes. They got rid of them about 12 years ago. However, Fedex has a contract with the USPS to carry most, if not all Express and Priority Mail on their flights. When Fedex got the contract, there was a reciprocal agreement with USPS to allowed FX to put drop boxes for their parcels at USPS post offices. That way USPS helped FX with their business, and FX helped USPS with theirs. As far as delivery to the recipient goes there is no tracking info untill the item has been delivered. Usually when we track a package it will say delivery abroad at ?? AM on Sept 2nd or delivery was attempted on such and such a date. The package could be at customs yet.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Like Bob we ship all over but fortunately we are selling tooling not wood. The kits we are now selling US only. My larger customers arrange pic up and DHL often is the carrier . This is sure not a help to out business and a hindrance to most others as well.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Maybe I've missed something in all of this complication, but where is the primer for the small builder that might want to ship a guitar out of the country, or prepare one for someone who buys it here but wants to take it home to another country? It's my understanding that all woods have to be listed on forms, and declared, regardless of origin. Is this right, or am I misinformed?

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Filling out both Lacey and USFW 3-177 are not difficult . They just take a little time, and some background work with your wood suppliers to find out the country of origin of the woods used .. a phone call to my main supplier here got me all the info I needed in less than 10 miuntes. You can easily find all the required latin species and genus info on the web for all your woods. What does take time the first time around is calculating all the weights or volumes of each part. I used volumes, as I didnt bother to weight every piece that I used - some you cant anyway, because you trim them down some after you glue stuff up. Since the volume is required in Meters cubed, the numbers are VERY small. Do them once and you never need to do them again. For instance, a guitar top is about .0006 M3.. for an average dread or 16 incher, depending on thickness of course !!! So an OM is then .0005, or a jumbo .0007 .. easy. Is someone really going to sit and check whether or not you are off by one ten thousandth of a M3 ... no. What they are really going to look at is all the species ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

http://www.luth.org/cites.htm


I've also shipped world wide for decades using only the USPS Customs forms and clearance, but came close to losing everything we own last year when USFWS showed up and investigated us for almost 9 months. Only you can decide if not doing the paperwork is worth the risk of bankruptcy, heavy fines, and possible jail time...

Chuck,
Had you not filled out the paperwork?

I'd never even heard of the 3-177 and 3461 forms. After the investigation started I contacted everyone I knew in the industry who imported/exported shell products or materials (almost two dozen companies) and no one else had ever heard of or was using those either. The entire industry was actually non-compliant, and much of it remains so even today. But with all the information avilable now, it will be impossible for anyone in the guitar industry to use ignorance as a defense in court and they'll be subject to big-time prosecution for willful violations.

Thanks, Chuck!

Can't tell you how much we appreciate your directness and help in this whole mess.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

+1

For what it’s worth (thanks to Robert Cefalu), Indian wood dealers are organizing and involving their government: http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... zkiewicz/2

Here are 179 pages showing a Nashville, TN, court memorandum, a search warrant affidavit, and an Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA) report concerning the 2009 Gibson raids and Madagascar and U.S. wood Tariff regulations (courtesy Stephen Bacon, on Musical Instrument Makers Forum/MIMF): http://www.scribd.com/doc/63755524/US-v ... -to-Strike.

Looks like some republican senators are asking to hold a hearing on the Gibson raid.

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/180619-republicans-demand-answers-about-gibson-guitar-raids?page=2#comments

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

To sum up what those very tedious 179 pages actually say:

Gibson’s 2009 raid and confiscation involve Madagascar wood dealer Roger Thunam who was already in trouble with his own government, and who illegally sold Gibson wood which had been “seized in place” (still in their possession but not allowed to be moved). It’s been illegal to harvest Madagascar ebony since 2006. It appears that Gibson was aware of the "grey market" status of the transaction, which was brokered through large German wood dealer Theodor Nagle. Also, according to tariff regulations, any ebony or rosewood (regardless of country of origin) which is over 6mm thick cannot be exported unless it's a fully "finished" product.

Not only was the African wood thus illegal to begin with, but Gibson had it exported from Madagascar through Germany and into the U.S. under international tariff classification HTS 9209.92.00 which is defined as "finished parts for musical instruments". The U.S. authorities are arguing that this applies only to parts which are essentially ready to assemble, or "bolt on", with only a minimal amount of additional labor, and that these "finished" parts must be in a form which cannot be remanufactured into something else.

They're also arguing that because the pieces of flat wood known as "fingerboard blanks" which Gibson was buying are over 6mm thick and also require substantial reprocessing before they become an actual guitar part, they must be classified as an HTS 4407 item, "sawn wood" or "sawn logs". But in this form the ebony and rosewood are illegal to export or import. Another classification code of HTS 4408 applies to woods or veneers but only if under 6mm thick, so the blanks cannot be brought in using this number either.

Much of the Nashville court’s memorandum involves Gibson’s efforts to have the wood returned to them, but since it’s considered to be contraband in the first place the court denied their appeals (a raided heroin dealer can’t sue to get the illegal drug returned). Interestingly, Gibson has known since at least 1990, when they received a U.S. Customs ruling on it, that fingerboard blanks were an HTS 4407 item and could not legally be purchased.

Representatives from Gibson (Gene Nix), C.F. Martin and Taylor had made a trip to Madagascar in June of 2009, along with people from the Forest Stewardship Council (or FSC, a non-government organization which certifies that wood sources are Lacey compliant), with the goal of finding legal wood sources. Having experienced a military coup in March, the country was still in an unstable state of political flux, and the provisional government had not been recognized as a fully legitimate power. Martin and Taylor didn’t like what they saw and backed out, but Gibson didn’t. Gene Nix is quoted from several confiscated emails reporting back to Gibson that he knew the wood was illegal, but thought he could get it anyway (“Mr. Thunam on the other hand should now be able to supply Nagel with all the rosewood and ebony for the grey market”). Further, Gibson had to be aware that fingerboard blanks were not a legal “finished” product since they had been working with Music Wood Corporation to change laws and tariff classification numbers to eventually make the woods legal.

Henry J.’s continuing media rants about being “singled out” and “picked on” are pure dissembling, to garner public support and obscure the fact that not one but several issues are involved: possible CITES violations on the endangered Madagascar woods; Lacey Act paperwork mistakes on the non-endangered Indian woods; and questionable tariff definitions on both the Madagascar and Indian material. His proclaimed innocence about the issues is also suspect, given Gibson’s involvement since 1990 with tariff rulings, Gene Nix’s 2009 “grey market” comments, and their effort to legalize the fingerboards.