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I posted this over on the MIMF but am hoping there are some Gibson folks that might see it here that can offer their opinion.

This came into my shop this weekend wrapped up in a black plastic trash bag. It's in pretty rough shape. The owner bought it in the 60's from a friend who was headed to Nam and he is willing to spend a fair amount on it to get it playable. Based on his comments I would think the guitar was from the 50's or earlier. The consensus at the MIMF is that it is probably not a Gibson but if it is then it would be one of their earlier low end versions. It is not marked like you would expect based on the Gibson documentation easily available on the web plus there are other differences.

-Serial number stamped on lower end of neck block: 2096 21
-Mahogany and Spruce 14 fret pinned bridge (showed up with a tailpiece and movable bridge)
-Four ladder braces on back. Tall and about 1/4" wide.
-Top is X-braced with a cloth reinforcement at the X
-Neck is mahogany, 1.7" at the nut, 2" at 10th fret, 19 frets total.
-Scale 24.75"
-Individual tuners where originally three-on-a-plate.
-Upper bout: 11 1/2"
-Waist: 10 3/4"
-Lower Bout: 16"
-Body Length 20"; Depth tapers from 4 3/4" to 3 3/4".

Here's where I'm at so far. Looks like it could be an old low-end Gibson (not one of the well know models) or a similar guitar from an unknown maker that was dolled up so people would think it was a Gibson. Either way the name tag came from a Gibson case. The tuners should be three on a plate and the guitar should have a pinned bridge. The guitar condition is very poor so it is not likely to have any collector value. The only reasonable option is to fix it up so it can be a player. I think it is in good enough shape to do that, the neck seems to be reasonably straight. I'll talk to the owner but I think he has some sentimental attachment and will agree with this. He did mention that if it wasn't worth fixing then I could scrap it. So we'll see. If he doesn't want it then I'll fix it up for a shop guitar - my last one got sold (not one of mine - I wish, but a Martin HD28).

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

it looks like a J-45/50 in really bad condition. Is there a FON number? It could have been a banner J-45 or a fifties J-45. IMHO definitely worth restoring if only as a labour of love

BTW, all of the hardware looks to be replaced, including the pick guard. You should ask about this guitar on the UMGF, there are tons of Gibson experts there.

Looks like a Gibson - peghead shape, truss rod nut, body shape, bridge plate shape, bridge plate bolt hole(s) seen outside bridge pin holes, single ring rosette, thin X brace with cloth support, etc. My best guess: A J-45 that was sanded down and refinished and converted by adding the arch-top tailpiece (I seen this done before on old Gibsons). (Are top and back braces tall and thin? Is heel shape flat and rounded?)

The pictures are not very clear. If you can see dark over-spray inside the guitar on the braces around the sound hole including the x-brace, it is a J-45. If not, likely a J-50. (Odds are a J-45 since there were so many more J-45's manufactured and they were cheaper.) If you can see the outline of the original bridge and it is rectangular, it is likely from the late 1940's. If the original outline is belly shaped it is likely from the early 1950's assuming the pick-guard shape is original. If there is any outline of an original pick-guard that includes the fretboard it is mid 50's to 60's (likely 50's from the owner's story).

As previously said the tuners are not original. Likely the original were 3 on a plate since only the Southern Jumbo (SJ) had individual tuners and this is NOT an SJ since the bling is missing (bindings, rosette, fretboard inlay).

The Gibson metal badge is from a Gibson case and could have been the original case.

Value? Not much at all. Near zero collector value. You could pick up an old Gibson in very rough shape and get more $ return for your time and effort if you want a project such as this for the fun of it.

Hope this helps.

Ed

Kalamazoo?

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

???

Thanks for the info guys. I can't find any evidence of a label. Here's a shot of the neck block with the only numbers I've found and the heel if that helps. The back braces are a bit over 1/4" wide and are tall with a triangular cross section. This thing is so dirty I don't know about the overspray but I'll check.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

We all have our opinions. Anyway, it means something to the owner and I like it too so it is worth something. It's not all about $$ but something more important to him - memories of good times past and a friend who went to Vietnam. If I can get it playable for him without spending too much then I will do it.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Ed, your post encouraged me to spend some time with Google and do some more investigation:

From what I've found it looks like a late 40's J45 or a good copy that has had a rough life but it's also been played a lot. Nice to see divots in the BR fingerboard up to the 10th fret.

Here's what I found:
1 11/16" baseball-bat type neck - post WWII
17 degree peghead is pre '66
0.070" frets are pre '59
peghead narrows in thickness towards the top - pre '55
FON of 4 letters, followed by 1 or 2 more digits - '42 to '52
Mahogany neck blocks back in after the war - '46 or later
FON in the 2000's - '49

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I think it is a Gibson J-45 or J-50, most probably from the late-1940's. The only questionable part is the three-screw truss rod cover, which could have easily been added.
IMHO, it is a worthwhile project.....provided the top is not sanded too thin.

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John

The truss rod cover is a home made addition. The original had 2 screws. 1 top and 1 bottom.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Gibsons of this era typically didn't have a label, so its probably a good thing you found no evidence of a label. You might want to email John Thomas, here is his banner Gibson website: http://www.bannergibsons.com/index.html

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Steve,

The heel looks like Gibson. The FON looks genuine for a Gibson pre 1952. The neck block is square like Gibson. A 1949 fits all the clues I see too. So I think you have it right. I think a Gibson copy is remote. I own and have owned some vintage Gibsons which is how I learned the clues as you are doing.

Had it not been refinished it would be worth much more. At this point, after all the crack and brace repairs, hole filling and neck set if needed, if you added the Gibson logo and refinished it with a dark sunburst and period correct hardware, it would be worth two to three grand. But obviously that is a lot of work and some money for hardware.

Good luck with your project.

Ed

It is a Gibson for sure. X-braced 16" body. Peghead shape. Heel shape. Truss rod configuration. You can see the 2 original holes for the correct t/r cover.
The tuners are replacements for sure. You can see tracks of the 3 on a plate tuners.
It is a J-45 or J-50 for sure.
It was made earlier than 1955 based on the 19 frets.
The FON indicates 1940's, but the neck size looks small for early 40's. It probably has been sanded down.
The configuration of the sound hole ring will help narrow down the age.
The pick guard is a replacement for sure.
The bridge is missing.
As some one stated, the Gibson logo is from a Gibson case tag.

This would be a worthy project for someone with the skill to do the work for themselves.
Probably the best thing for this guitar is to properly re-glue all the loose or missing braces, repair the cracks, leave the finish alone, put a correct style pick guard on it, restore the peghead only, and add a proper logo. Then play it til your fingers hurt.
One of the best playing Gibsons I own started out in worse shape than this one.

Here is a photo of the soundhole. The hole in the rosette is where some one had a pickup mounted on it. They also had a bridge pickup on it at one time, the holes were filled with wood putty. The top binding is wbw and the back binding is white.

I appreciate all the help as I've never been much for Gibson acoustics but have been pretty much a Martin guy. That is changing as I learn more about this guitar. If I can get it fixed up it might be real hard to give it back to the owner.

I removed the back yesterday (I'll post a photo later) and the side reinforcements are wood instead of fabric. I couldn't really find any good information on wood vs fabric.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Trust me Steven, if you're a Martin guy you won't have any problem giving it back to the owner after it is fixed.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Here's a photo with the back removed. I'm going to go ahead and work on it as I think I can get it playable with a reasonable effort. I don't expect to make any money but the owner is my uncle so that's ok.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"