Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey all,
Well, since I'm not competing this time around, I don't have to wait until the 1st to start my project. So since it was fairly cool yesterday, I got quite a bit done forging the billet for the chisel that will be the prize for Round two. I may actually get it finished before you all get started...

So, for this billet, I started out with 9 layers of steel. 5 layers of 1084 (plowshare steel) and 4 layers of 15n20 (Swedish bandsaw steel). The 1084 has a lot of manganese in it, which makes it etch dark, and the 15n20 has nickel in it, which makes it etch very light. The two together make for great contrast.

Here are the pieces cut to length. I like to work with 4" long billets:




Notice the layers of 15n20 are much thinner than the 1084:




Before assembling the billet, the pieces have to be ground clean. Some people skip this step, but I prefer to not to make the flux work harder than it has to.

Here's my grinder:






Done grinding:

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

Now the pieces are clamped in a vise:




and the corners are welded together with a stick welder:




Then a length of re-bar is welded on as a handle:




The forge heating up:




This here is my biggest fan:

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

Some pics of my power hammer. I got this about a year and a half ago. Before that I had a small pneumatic hammer that I had built. This one is so much nicer. It's about 100 years old, and will still be running when I'm gone. I'd say they don't make 'em like they used to, but they don't make 'em at all anymore...




The business end. You don't want to get your fingers under there:




It runs off of an overhead lineshaft:




I worked three billets yesterday. The two on the left will be used for knives, and will probably end up as Turkish Twist. The one for the chisel will be Gordians Knot pattern.

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

The forge is now up to temp. (About 2500 degrees F)




So the billet is inserted:




I was too busy to get pictures of the following steps, so here's a quick synopsis.

When the billet starts to glow (about 1300 F) I sprinkle the billet with flux, which is a mixture of borax and boric acid. The purpose of the flux is to dissolve dirt and impurities, and to exclude oxygen. When the billet gets hot enough all the way through, it is then hammered or pressed, and the flux gets squeezed out, hopefully taking any junk with it. If it's all done right, you'll end up with one solid piece, with perfectly clean weld joints.

Here's a video of me doing a similar weld a year or so ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_zXRG- ... ature=plcp


Here is the billet welded and drawn out to 16" long:

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

Now the scale (layer of oxidized steel) is ground off with an angle grinder:




and it's cut into 4 pieces 4" long:




The fourth piece is still attached to the handle...

The pieces are again ground clean and smooth on the belt grinder, and tack welded together:




Then it's welded under the hammer again, and drawn out to a piece that's 1/2" square. It ended up exactly 40" long:




Then I cut it up into 2 pieces 16" long. Which leaves an extra 8" piece to use for something else.




That's all I have so far. It's going to be hot for awhile, so I don't know when I'll do more.

If anyone has questions, feel free to ask.

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

How does a Damascus blade hold an edge?
Would you make one to sell and if so, how much? Damascus is way cool!
Great thread. I'm enjoying it so far and can't wait to see more.

_________________
http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

A W E S O M E

I can't say that forging chisels, knifes, swords and all that is *better* or nicer than making guitars, but I'd sure love to have a forge in my backyard. I wouldn't mind that epic hammer either, I'll take it off your hands if we split the overseas shipping

Tony, the blade should get an edge as good as the cutting layer is...the heat treatment is very important too, think soundboard voicing Without it, the various steels are just like raw spruce boards

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Build log

So cool! That hammer is a thing of beauty. I've always had a bit of a fascination with sword making, and chisels look like a lot of fun too

The performance of damascus depends on the materials used, and, like Alexandru said, heat treat. I'll save the talk about heat treating until later.

Some people choose the materials based on looks alone, and don't consider performance. For instance some people (I won't mention any names) use two thirds mild steel, and one third tool steel. So you end up with a blade that has one third the performance that it could have! So, I only use materials that would make a good tool if used by itself.

It's just like with anything else, garbage in, garbage out. The myth that Damascus steel is superior is just that, a myth. The only way it's better is that it looks awesome. But, there are some who think that because it looks great, it must not cut well, and that's not true either. Use good materials, and treat it right, and you'll end up with something that works as well as any other carbon steel.

Anyway, I love damascus steel, because the creative possibilities are literally infinite.

Oh, and while I'm on the subject, the steel that was sold in the city of Damascus and bears it's name, is not what I'm making here. This should technically be called "pattern welded" steel, and the other is called "wootz". But but since everybody calls it "damascus", I do too.

Yes, I would sell a damascus chisel. I'll PM you the price.

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

This may end up being the best build thread in the challenge LOLOLOL

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Jeez I hope you dont build guitars on that bench in the photo up top,, lol
Very nice setup Phillip... I have a bladesmith friend on Saltspring Island - his name is Seth Burton and his company is Cosmo Knives - Ive bought 4 knives from him over the years (support your local bladesmiths ppl!)
Seth has a setup very similar to yours - I wonder if mabye youve heard of him? Probably not
Anyhoo - he has come a long way over the years,,, I remember when he was just starting out long ago,, and last year he was asked to make the knife prizes for the Canadian Culinary Championships.... hes a hell of a hard worker at his craft...

Love the Shop Phillip!
I really really like Damascus too - it almost makes me wanna throw my hat in the ring - but the chances of me winning it would be very slim..
On future challenges mabye we should have a couple prizes and categories broken down into skill levels - assigned by instruments built - like 1-10, 10-20, 20+ novice, intermediate, and professional skill levels
Cheers
Charliewood

Phillip,

I collect and shoot antique English Damascus-barreled shotguns. The oldest was ordered in 1865 from Boss & Co. in London, and is still in perfect shooting condition. I've been a fan for many years. I'd love to have a chunk of your work to make a Carruth-style scraper out of sometime. Your craft is truly amazing--thank you for keeping the skill alive!!

All the best,

Jaybird

I want a butterfly pattern scraper too!

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Build log

Very.....cool.....!

Holy cow that's one humdinger of a beatin' machine!
Will be very interested in tempering techniques, with your laminated blanks as well as suggestions for Starrett oil hardending bar stock that I frequently use for quickie scrapers, etc.
-C

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

I'm SO impressed. Maybe I should give up on my build here and now...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Picking up where I left off, we have two bars, about 18" long, with 33 layers each. They'll eventually be cut in half, but for now, it's much easier to do the next steps while they're longer.

So, then next step is to mark each bar in the middle. This is so I know where to clamp it in the vise. To mark it, I nick it with the angle grinder, because soapstone doesn't show up well at 2000 degrees:




Now one half is heated up good and hot, then clamped in the vise and twisted. It's important to know when to stop twisting, because as the steel cools down, it becomes less malleable, but if you keep going, you'll break it. That's only happened to me once, but it was enough.




I twisted each bar a total of 15 full turns. I took 3 "heats" to do it, so about 5 twists per heat. You can see my twisting tool behind the vise in this pic:




When we reach the right number of twists, the billet is forged square again:




Then it's all repeated for the other half of the bar, but this time it's twisted the other direction:

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

Now the bars are cut in half, ground clean on one side, and tack welded together on the ends:






Then handles are welded on:




Just before forge welding:




Just after:

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

Then the billets are once again ground clean, and cut in half. Then I etch them a little bit so I can see which way the twists are going:




That's because it's important to stack them right for the last weld. You want clockwise twisted bars diagonally across from each other when looking at the end of the bar. Hope I'm making sense here...

Once I know how they're supposed to go together, they are tack welded one last time, and forge welded again:




Then the resulting bar (which has four bars, two each twisted clockwise and counter clockwise) is twisted again. It doesn't matter which way. For these two, I did one clockwise and the other counter clockwise, just to see the difference.




This is the counter clockwise billet, and I'll be making a knife out of it.




Then the chisel billet is forged flat. I'm leaving it fairly thick, because I want to grind it clean before final forging.

_________________
Regards,
Phillip Patton

http://www.pattonblades.com

The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price has faded.

https://hoosierbladesmith.wordpress.com

This is the best build thread ever. I probably wont even finish my build because I'll be too busy reading over this thread again and again.

Very very cool, Mr. Patton.

_________________
-Marcus

Fascinating stuff! That's a lot of work and fuel to layer and twist the metal so many times.

What is the purpose of the twisting? is it just part of the visual style you're going for on this one, or is there some mystical magical metallurgical purpose to it?

Yes, Phillip, I think this is truly fascinating. My paternal grandfather (who died long before I was born) was a blacksmith and wheelwright. He must have done a lot of his work without the benefit of a power hammer. My dad always said his father had forearms like Popeye the Sailor. In any event, you are documenting this very well and I am thankful that you're showing it to us.

Patrick

Already one of my favorite threads. I love this stuff!

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

This is Hands down the most interesting Thread , To bad hes Disqualified ! LOL

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/

Simply put, I love this thread!

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.