Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey everyone, long time no post. I've spent the last 4 months searching for a new home, and living at the in-laws. Lest anyone needs a reminder, never live with the in-laws.

Anyway, the search is over. We closed on a home yesterday, and move in Sunday. I have the entire 2 car garage to create my shop in, and my first purchase for it, is going to be a table saw. My budget is $1000, but I can go up to $1500. I've been scouring the local craigslist, and there are quite a few used options. The best that I've seen so far in my price range is the Delta Unisaw (http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/tls/3355652845.html). Other than that, I want to make sure to explore the brand new options as well. I know I can get into a Grizzly for under my budget, like the G0691 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-3HP-220V-Cabinet-Table-Saw-with-Long-Rails-Riving-Knife/G0691). I'm also considering Hybrid table saws, like the Jet, and Laguna's Fusion.

My primary use for the saw will be guitar work, but I want to be able to do anything with it, especially cabinetry for the house, built in's, furniture, etc..

Anyone have any good words for me here? It would be greatly appreciated.

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Jason McGowan
M&S Guitars
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United States of America, looks like another silent night
As we're sung to sleep by philosophies that save the trees and kill the children....
Casting Crowns

Look for deals. I got my table saw at the grizzly tent sale. It is a 5HP shop fox that had a scratch in the paint and a cracked dust hood. It cost me $500 and it handles anything I can throw at it.

Does your garage have 220 power in it? Most of these big table saws run off 220. Also, if you think about it, you really don't need more than a 4' cutting capacity for sheet goods, so the rails on the grizzly may be a bit of overkill.

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ELEVATE || Next Level Lutherie
http://elevatelutherie.com
&
http://ensorguitars.com

I've got a 70's vintage Unisaw. Simple, reliable, smooth running, never had a problem with it besides belts which I sourced at an auto parts store.

If you can afford a Unisaw & have the room for it, I'd say go for it. Test before you buy to make sure there are no weird vibrations or a bent arbor.

A old Powermatic 66 (American made) or a Canadian built General 10" are also great saws. I'm sure the newer Asian built saws are fine but I like the older stuff, just nostalgic I guess.

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

The Delta looks like it has been well cared for, and seems to be a pretty good price. I would test it first, and check for blade runout with a dial indicator on a magnetic base. Check the belts for excessive wear, as well.
I don't know about Grizzly machines - they aren't sold up here, but they are likely similar to those sold at Busy Bee Tools. http://www.busybeetools.com/products/CA ... E-CSA.html
I bought my table saw used for $1200, and don't regret it at all. I would never been able to afford a new one like it. Best of luck!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Whatever you do, take your time and do the research. Shop shop shop. Check out sawmillcreek.org to learn about what's out there. If you are only building guitars, I would dedicate more money for a good bandsaw and a good thickness sander over a table saw. The table saw is my least used tool when it comes to guitars (other than jig & mold building). The Grizzly saws with the router table attached are a great idea. That said, if I could upgrade any tool in my shop, it would be the table saw. I would like a heavier, more powerful one (I do other stuff than guitars). 220 volt circuits are easy to add if you don't have one yet.

I say, save more money and buy a SawStop. You won't regret it long term, especially if one day the blade drops down and your fingers are saved by it.
Just my $.02

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Good point. Do it now before the government mandates it. At which point it will cost twice as much.

While a Sawstop we be a welcomed addition to the shop, its for sure not in the budget. I am leaning more towards the cabinet saws. About an hour north of where I live is a town packed full of cabinet makers that are always selling saws it seems. The Unisaw is looking awfully good, but I definitely want to consider the Grizzly as well. Tough decision.

I do have a decent (Grizzly) 14" bandsaw, a Jet Drum sander and dust collection system, along with a Jessem router table. This saw is really just to complete the heavy machinery of the shop.

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Jason McGowan
M&S Guitars
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United States of America, looks like another silent night
As we're sung to sleep by philosophies that save the trees and kill the children....
Casting Crowns

I have a 10 year old Unisaw that I have used hard. I needed the power to resaw white oak etc. to dimension for furniture. The power, accuracy and endurance of the saw are great. In short if you buy a used unisaw you will never regret it until the day you give it to your grandson.

Oh brother, here we go again. Take a breath:
http://www.woodcraft.com/PRODUCT/208392 ... QgodnTgAag

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Dont think I can add much to the conversation that hasnt already been said but ...looks like you are working in the right direction browsing on Craigslist. Thats a reasonable price for a great saw on that 10" Unisaw. The Bes. fences are great. Looks like it has adequate dust collection port too (although I would upgrade to 6" port).

I found a 1960 Delta/Rockwell Unisaw with custom bench extension/drawers, and Vega fence system on Craigslist from a local cabinet maker. I paid $500 for the set and rebuilt the arbor assembly and replaced crank for another $400, so I have about $900 in it. It's very stout, sturdy, and heavy. Takes three people to move it! I am very glad I got an old vintage USA made cabinet saw and not a newer import. I have a thing for sturdy vintage tools and American pride I reckon. I got turned off by the plastic motor cover on a cabinet saw at Woodcraft (think it was a newer Delta, or maybe a Sawstop?).

All that said, I mostly use my saw for a work bench, but it comes in handy for making fretboards and other various parts, and squaring up stock. I'm glad I bought it.

....and then he loses his fingers on it. Oh yeah. Then, you'll regret it.

Gotta think these things through to their potential conclusions, instead of in the short term. Yes, Unisaws are awesome saws, as are the Powermatic cabinet saws.

BUT....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

The present record with Grizzly tools has been lest than stellar . I tried Shop fox and they are not much better , I have a steel City saw that I like alot. If you can find an old Unisaw grab it. They are hard to beat.
Issues that I have with Grizzly is motors and bearing issues. In the last 5 years the only grizzly tool I had that didn't have an issue was a band saw. Sander ( 3 motors and band circuit board ) Lathe bad switch Drill press RETURNED Oscillating Drum sander 3 of them bad shafts lasted about 18 months and rebuilt Dust collector just overloads the filter system. Poor design.
Hope the information helps In all fairness today's Manufacturing is all off shore and is not done for quality it is done for a price level .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Been using a Jet similar to Todd's hard every day for over a decade, we bought it new in 97 I think. Replaced the bearings once. It is a great saw and I would recommend it. It was made in the USA, I see some new jet stuff made in China, don't know about that....My Chinese Jet joiner I just bought works ok, but it took over a day to get it set up, this included disassembling and filing/grinding some of the ways to get it coplaner.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Go for the Unisaw, you'll never need to think about the issue again.

Steve

While a saw stop is great for the real stupid moment , SAFE PRACTICE is the best thing you can do. The tool is only as dangerous as the loose nut that is operating it .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

The heavier, the better.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I hear you, but let me tell you about Paul Norman, a friend and fellow member of the New England Luthiers group and owner of Forbidden Fruit Guitars http://www.forbiddenguitars.com/. Very smart guy, very talented woodworker. He's always been a safety conscious guy, but one day he was working at the shop and lost focus a little bit and...well, now he doesn't have a thumb, index finger, 2/3 of a middle finger, half a ring finger, and 1/3 of a pinky finger. He's lucky to have the remaining parts of his three fingers, if you can call it lucky. He dumped the Unisaw and now has a SawStop. Is money really such an object that it's worth not considering? So when I argue about this particular subject, I have good reason to make my point.
Please...consider saving more toward your budget and getting the safest choice. I'm saving for mine. It will take a few years, but I will replace my Powermatic with one eventually.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

To play devils advocate, have you totally stopped using your powermatic now Don till you get the SawStop?

Table saw accidents are awful indeed.

I own a 40+ year old delta unisaw. It's perfect for me. It does everything I ask it to do and I respect it. If I can't give my full attention to what I'm doing when I use that tool then I deserve what ever outcome I get. There have been so many times I've either left the shop or not gone in because I've needed to use the table saw and I'm not in the right mind set to do the job safely.

Be smart and you'll reduce the potential for accidents ten fold. Don you said yourself that your friend was distracted and that's when he lost his fingers. That's awful indeed, but continuing with his cut while being distracted was foolish. I know it can happen however our smarts and our decision to work or shut off the lights is really our best safety officer.

I'm sure for every person who has lost a finger or more to a table saw there are 100,000 others who still have ten digits...

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

One thing to consider is that the SawStop, at least last time I checked, does not have a cartridge for a thin kerf 6" blade nor can the technology be turned off without a cartridge in place. You would need another dedicated saw for your fret slotting rig. Their FAQ suggests that blades thinner than 3/32" should not be used. There is a 8" dado cartridge.

Have you guys that have a SawStop used the Freud Diablo blade with a stiffener successfully with the 8" cartridge?

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I have earned my entire living making beautiful things of wood my whole life. I just lost the tip (about 1/2" or so) of a finger to a thickness planer 2 months back. A saw stop would not have helped with that. What would have helped was not being in a rush to finish something by the end of the day. So what about all that other dangerous equipment lurking in your shop? Who will save you from it? Safety is mainly about the operator, not so much the machine.

FWIW, we considered upgrading the cabinet shop to these a few years back and here is what I know about them. When a saw stop is triggered it will destroy the blade and the cartridge will need replaced. A Forrest blade and the cartridge will be at least $250. While my hands are worth more than money (trust me on that), machinery does malfunction as well, so there is no real guarantee it will work when needed. These things can also be triggered by wet lumber. They do not work with Teflon coated or any type of coated blades. You must switch brake cartridges when changing to a dado head and I also do not believe you can use stabilizers on a blade in one. And as already mentioned the system is totally ineffective against kickback and even a riving knife will not eliminate the potential for that. I think something like this promotes a false sense of security in the shop and may lead to riskier behavior. In the end we could not justify the price, even from a safety standpoint. We have far more injuries every year from hand held power tools than the stationary stuff. Routers have been the worst offenders. Actually if one of our workers is going to the ER for stitches it is usually a utility knife or a chisel that was the cause.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I have an old unisaw in one shop that I have taken the extension table off of and made some short rails for and a mobile base. It makes for a very compact saw that takes up less space than the jet contractors saw it replaced. In another shed shop I have a powermatic 66 whose 5 hp 3 phase motor I replaced with a 2 hp 220V single phase motor. It doesn't have quite as much power to throw things at me, but using thin kerf blades and reasonable feed rates it cuts just fine.
If I had the bucks I would consider a saw stop table saw. Most reviews have been positive about the quality of the saw as a saw, and the safety feature is worthwhile if you use the saw everyday. We all get a case of the stupids occasionally. There are a lot of other tools in the shop that can ruin your day, so the saw stop is no guarantee you will keep all your fingers, but it does make the saw a bit safer.

Okay, my last comment on the subject...

The point is, *accidents* happen. They are called accidents because in spite of all our planning and being as careful as we can, they still happen. We're human. We make mistakes. Even the best of us have accidents. Nobody plans to have one. We never expect them, especially if we have good habits with those tools. The reality is that's when we become too comfortable with the tool, with the setup, with our normal safety habits, and that is often the point when our judgement lapses momentarily and bad things happen.

No, I didn't stop using my table saw because that's all that I have right now, so yes I try to be as safe as possible, I've had two near misses even so. Stuff happens. I would personally prefer to have some other kind of safety feature on the equipment just - in - case my own judgement fails me. The reality is, my judgement fails me in spite of how safe I try to be.

Right now, the OP has no table saw, and posted a limit of spending. All we can do is tell him to spend the money one way or another. My suggestion is a little off that path, but how many of you will be feeling lousy if his decision to ask for our advice resulted in him still having a lapse in attention/judgement etc and ends up losing digits, based on getting a piece of equipment that we suggested?

Do we as a community really want to be recommending something other than that which could have potentially prevented the devastating effects of such an accident? Given the nature of the law suits involved in this issue right now, we know the potential liability of making a recommendation about this.

"Your Honor, I bought this saw based on the recommendations of the following people on the OLF.....and that's why I lost my fingers. If they had recommended I buy the saw with the finger-saving technology on it, I would have my hand today."

I know that seems extreme and perhaps a bit alarmist, but it could happen. I stand by my recommendation.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

This is my 1st post on this forum. Been lurking awhile, getting ready to try my 1st acoustic. I had to weigh in on this subject. I work at a hobby woodworking store and we sell all the major name brand table saws, Jet, Powermatic, Delta Unisaw and Sawstop. We are selling the Sawstops way more than the others. I sold a SS Professional 3hp yesterday ($3599). Sounds like a lot until you think about what happens when you make a mistake. I have spoken with several lifelong woodworkers who fell victim to a moments distraction and now bare the lifelong damage as a reminder. Then there is the medical expense! It usually runs in the area of 75-100K,depending on how much they save. The $3000+ SS doesn't seem so expensive.
If I was buying a new table saw it would be a SS, and we don't get a discount.
Something else to consider is the Festool TS 55 track saw. There is very little that can be done on a Table saw that the TS55 track saw cant do.
Hope this helped.
Paul

I'll say this again and I'm out.....SAFETY IS ABOUT THE OPERATOR MUCH MORE THAN THE TOOL, WOODWORKING AT ANY LEVEL IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS! if you do not understand and accept this then maybe you should find something else to do. Not being rude here, just honest.

We seriously looked into these, our compliance and safety guy was pushing real hard for them. we were not happy about the tooling limitations, but the deciding moment was when the my boss asked the Sawstop rep for another demo and to use his finger instead of the hotdog this time.That of course did not happen. His comment before walking out was" I will not have my employees put their faith in a safety system that the manufacturer does not"

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/