Official Luthiers Forum!

I agree that SawStop is an insurance policy . I have cut myself on the table saw I never set the blade that it is far out of the work. I don't use a table saw for a CUT OFF function . Lastly I do not use a push stick I use blocks. I have seen push sticks penetrate a hand and it ain't pretty.
I have cut my thumb a few years ago. My Fault. I broke 2 safety rules. It was the day before we buried my Mother in Law and I didn't check my push block. NOT HAVING MY HEAD IN THE GAME AND NOT CHECKING EQUIPMENT. Yes my thumb is fine.
Yes Saw Stop will stop a blade and I think it may be great for beginners and if you have one I pray you never need it but DON"T ALLOW THAT DEVICE TO CHANGE OPERATING PROCEDURES. Accidents happen because we break the safety rules. I have not seen a table saw that jumped out of the top to cut a hand the operator put the hand in the way of danger or didn't set up the job.
Kick Back I am sure accounts for a high amount of the accidents and that is operator error so be trained and know your equipment. The argument may be does this work ??? Yes it does and like a fire extinguisher it something that we have that we hope we never use.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

As some here might know I was an Orthopaedist for over 30 years and spent a lot of time in ERs. We saw a lot of power tool injuries to hands. The vast majority were from table saws and kickback was cited by the patient as the precipitating event in most of the cases. Amateurs and pros alike. If the SawStop technology supported the blades I use much of the time or could be turned off for stuff like fret slotting I'd probably get one. We're all human and screw up from time to time.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I think the Saw Stop is a no-brainer if you have an unlimited cash supply, or if you are really accident prone and value your digits. While I value my digits, I don't meet either of the other criteria. I've been in the construction industry all my life, and I've worked around a LOT of dangerous things. The table saw is definitely on my list of tools not to mess with while tired or irritated, or in a huge rush. The tool that scares me more than a table saw though, is the router. I think we all just need to follow the safety rules, and stay away from equipment that we aren't physically, and mentally ready to use. If you aren't thinking EVERY TIME YOU MAKE A CUT, that I could lose my fingers or hand right now, its not the time to use the tool.

Now, back on topic..

I think that I am going to narrow my search down to the cabinet saws. I like that they are heavy, and run very smoothly regardless of what you're cutting. There are two that I'm looking at. One is a 10" Delta table saw that is not a Unisaw. It is a little bit smaller, and has a 2HP motor. The other is a Unisaw with the 52'' Biesemeyer fence. The price difference is this:

10" Delta Cabinet saw with 32" Unifence - $800
10" Delta Unisaw with 52'' Biesemeyer fence - $1300

If I got the 1st one at $800, I would want to put a bigger fence on it, which would push the price up probably around $1200.. The guy is firm on his prices.

Tough decision...

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Jason McGowan
M&S Guitars
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United States of America, looks like another silent night
As we're sung to sleep by philosophies that save the trees and kill the children....
Casting Crowns

Remember that you can resell the 32" fence so you'll get some money back from that if you upgrade...

If you have the shop space the 52" fence would be nice for making cabinets and cutting plywood to half sheets. But if you don't have need for that type of work than I'd honestly say don't bother with the longer fence. You'll find the 32" fence plenty of room for most of the cuts you'll do.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Cost, or anger that other people simply don't have the laser focus you do (all the time every time) is not an excuse not to recognize the obvious merits of the sawstop. It is an excellent machine. It most likely will also leave a little nick in your finger if you set it off and if your boss expects the salesman to bleed a little for a sale I think something is more wrong with your boss than the other guy.

I use (and oversee) one every day at work and it is a nice saw. In our school shop it gets borderline abused and keeps on going. Calls are answered quickly and completely and parts show up fast and include, in most cases, a picture tutorial on how to replace the parts which is greatly appreciated.

The riving knife system is excellent and I personally have seen that device prevent more than a few possible accidents.

The cartridge has triggered probably 5-6 times in the last 2 years and only once because someone's skin touched the blade. That is a concern. We also are always cutting new and unorthodox materials so that certainly contributes. At another job I had (cutting mostly hardwood, plywood and plexiglass) it never went off. Switching to the dado is a pain, that is true. The lack of option for non-10" blades is also a drawback but not a deal breaker for me. I have not tried to run the 7 1/4 blades with the dado cartridge. Might give it a shot after finals and see if it is possible.

The dust collection setup is better than any other table saw I have ever used, or seen.

I respect that they are not for everyone but if the money was there I think it is the best choice. That is coming from someone (me) who in almost every other case would push for the older, heavier, more versatile, and completely American made tool.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

VERY WELL SAID!

There's the rest of the story.

FWIW, I checked into the SawStop quite a while back. Knew someone who owned one, and he had been trying to talk me into buying one, so I went over and checked it out. I spent well over an hour checking it out and asking him questions.
Very nicely built, and dust collection was great. But, for my purposes, it would not serve well.

1. I was immediately turned off by the fact that I couldn't do my usual routine of using a cheap circular saw blade to process "dirty" scrap (contruction salvage, etc.). Apparently the saw is only designed for 10" blades. I realize some of the more astute woodworkers here may be shocked to realize that I would want to do such a thing, but I don't turn down free recycleable lumber, and I don't have the space to dedicate to separate saws.
If you want to use a dado, you're limited to 8". Plus, you need a different brake for the dado- more $$$.
Speaking of scrap, another letdown was the iffy part about the ability of the saw to handle metal contamination (nails, staples, etc.). Apparently it does indeed handle such stuff without triggering the brake, providing the debris is only in contact with the blade. But if that debris is in contact with both the blade and the table (or the miter gage, etc.), then it can trigger the brake. I suppose one should take the time to glean over every single piece of wood and ensure that won't happen, but I digress...
(BTW, I have received entire loads of "new" lumber straight from the supplier that had staples embedded from torn labels, etc.)

2. He said that sometimes when he installed a new blade, or received the same blade back from sharpening, the brake might need adjustment. I didn't ask for specifics about this, but it seemed like a hassle to me. Apparently the design of the brake system is intolerant of even minor variances in the blade.

3. The saw does not operate without the brake. No brake cartridge, no cutting whatsoever.
My first thought was "Great, yet another expensive 'just-in-case' backup item I have to keep stocked on the shelf."
I asked if he had a "spare" brake, to which he replied, "Of course!"
No problem there, as most of us are in the habit of keeping backup blades, belts, etc. so as to get running again if something breaks down.
But here's the real problem- apparently his saw is already one of the older "outdated" models that uses a cartridge for which he has to contact the manufacturer. The outlet that sold him the saw does not carry those cartridges.
Maybe I'm different than most, but I like being able to run to the store and get the part I need to resume work now, or at least being able to order online from the outlet of my choice if it's that type of part.
Not to take the spotlight away from tablesaws, but rather to illustrate my concern about manufacturer/customer relations, I'm going through this same type of problem with Festool concerning my dust extractors (CT22 and CT33). Awesome products, albeit pricey for most. The concern centers around the availability of the bags and filters, as they discontinued those models and provided "upgrades". Festool says they will stock parts for seven years, but what if my units keep running longer than that?
So, will Sawstop continue providing brake cartridges for this guy?
Here's a scenario: You've acquired a very old saw from your grandfather. It was built during an era when things were "built right, and built to last", but it has a bent arbor, and the manufacturer went out of business decades ago. No problem, any reputable machine shop should be able to get you going. Same thing with anything else on the machine that's no longer available.
Now if SawStop no longer supplies the "old" brake cartridges to this guy (or whoever else down the line may own it), who is going to make those brake cartridges?

To me, this is very important. Let's face it, these types of tools are one-time purchases for the overwhelming majority of us.

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Always have plenty of sandpaper; it's rough out there!

If it is within your budget, get the Unisaw with the Biesemeyer. You aren't likely to need an upgrade down the road. One nice thing about the Biesemeyer, aside from being rock solid, is that you can replace the rectangular steel tube that the fence locks on to, allowing you to increase/decrease ripping capacity for about $50 including new adhesive measure tape. You will also need a thread tap, and paint.
I did this when I got my present table saw, and it is pretty easy.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

The Diablo works fine. I run it without stiffeners.
As for fret slotting, it's only a matter of time before someone takes an 8" slitting blade ( like these http://www.thurstonmfg.com/plain-metal- ... -saws.html ) with the correct plate thickness and has the outer 1/4" of the rim ground down to .023 or whatever, for use as a fretting blade.
I know for fact that LMI has a Saw Stop, which just saved one of their employees a major accident, so they would be a likely candidate to lead the charge on such a blade.
Like it or not the SS technology is here to stay, and the rest of the tooling market will catch up or be left behind. Just like setabelts; even if you're too stupid to use them it's still your right to suffer the consequences.

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

The unisaw sound like a good deal.

In the quote above, the OP clearly states the desire for a saw that will accomodate his needs.
I fail to see where anyone has stated that they do not appreciate the safety feature of the SawStop. Rather, individuals have pointed to inherent compromises that may make the saw unsuitable for their needs.

Whenever threads such as this arise, safety naturally comes to the surface, and quite often a tone is taken that irregardless of any shortcomings, it's an all-or-nothing deal.
To me, this is the same as saying if an individual needs something but it doesn't fit the criteria of others, then the individual should simply do without; irrespective of the individual's right to address specific needs and exercise their own judgement.

I love the seatbelt references. Sorta reminds me of the discussions I had with an ex-father-in-law.
He was big on Volvos because they were so safe, a merit I did not dispute.
"Sure, it's safe, but will you haul my tools and materials?"
"Sure, it's safe, but if it doesn't provide the gas mileage I need, will you pay for part of my fuel costs?"
"Sure, it's safe, but if I have to do without my hot rod for an adrenaline rush, can I borrow your sports car?"
"Sure, it's safe, but can my budget afford the service/maintenance?"
"Sure, it's safe, but I can't afford it. Do you believe enough in my safety to buy it for me?"
"I have shown you that I can't afford a Volvo, and even if I could afford one, it does not address the needs I have for an automobile. You are suggesting that since I cannot or will not buy a Volvo, I should not drive at all. Why don't you quit preaching to me about the Volvo, because you don't even have one yourself."

We assess our needs and wants, then we prioritize. Each individual must decide for themselves- as it should be.

Tonight I'm teaching my daughter how to thin the cocobolo for her next guitar. In our basement workshop, the filters in the air filtration unit needs to be changed, and I need to install fresh cartridges in the respirators.
I figure I can teach her one of two ways; either we learn safe practices and do the best with what we have at hand, or we remortgage the house to build a perfect clean room lab environment, in which case the project will never get done. But at least the room will be completely safe.

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Always have plenty of sandpaper; it's rough out there!

I've owned the Grizzly 1023 series table saw with 7' rails for about 5+ years and I love it. Never had any problems with it and it handles everything I throw at it. I also own 3 other Grizzly machines: an 8" jointer, 15" planer and 2HP cyclone dust collector. All of those machines have served me well and I will add more Grizzly machines to the shop without hesitation. If I were buying a table saw on your budget right now, I would buy the 0691. No brainer to me. That's my 2 cents.

Also, I can't remember which one, but one of those Grizzly saws had a blade shroud that looked like it would really help with dust collection.

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sweat the small stuff.

I think the one point that I am concerned about is if the Government decides to mandate Saw Stop Technology . That I have to question. Uni Saw is a great design and stood the test of time.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

hello everyone. My name is Donnie Gilliam,I have been a member for several years but this is my first post.I have talked to John Hall a few times and he has been a lot of help to get on my first neck re-set.Have been building some dulcimers and repairs but I hope to start my first guitar soon. I have over fifty years as a woodworker and just about every power and hand tool you can name but never built a guitar.As far as safety, it is a frame of mind and you must keep your mind on it every time you turn on a power tool.Every time I hit the switch I say to myself this will cut my fingers or hand clean off. a kick back could impale a piece of wood into my gut.Fancy saws that cost a lot of money will still hurt you if you break the rules.IMO,a uni saw old or new is still the best all around saw you can buy and at a decent cost.Get a good fence and build an OUT FEED TABLE for the longest and widest material you plan use.My uni saw has a 4x8 out feed table,as I build all sorts of things.It is mounted to the saw and has casters on it as well as my saw I can move it anywhere. This is a big plus.If you can not keep your mind on safety and what you are doing,leave these big saws alone and build with hand tools.Hope this will help some of you.thanks for your time and work safe .Donnie

Terence..I have a contractor sawstop. .
You can bypass the safety when you're not sure about nails and wet wood by using the key lock...but still needs blade/safety cartridge match.
I'm a retired cabinet maker and used all kinds of saws...was planning to get a unisaw but sawstops are nice...I'm hoping to keep my fingers intact as I approach senility. I wish more tools come out with safeties.
They are also very well built. I was concerned that they are made in Taiwan but the quality control and build specs are great...better that some non-asian stuff.
The longevity of the electronics is untested but I'm not sure all power tools should be heirlooms anyway...unlike hand tools. I inherited all my dad's tools but I don't use the saw/jointer combo or Guild(no parts) skillsaw. Some 'newer' stuff is better safety/health wise...I love Festools.
One thing I like is the cam action lock for the blade guards..fast to switch from shield to riving...gives me incentive to always use the shield.
One thing I hate is adjusting for different size 10" blades...all brands are not 10". I usually just use my Tenryu blades(10-1/16"). My Forrest are 9-7/8". Recommended clearance is about a nickel.
I also had to box up the bottom and put a removable panel in back by the motor for better dust control. The dust collecting shield is good but extra $.

For what its worth...there was a short video showing the owner of sawstop using his finger to stop the blade. But he moved micro slow and soaked his hand in ice water (don't know the real reason why). The faster your finger moves the more damage.
I always use my seat belt and my tacoma has airbags and ABS and I like that, even though I'm not positive it will work (I'm ok with crash dummies and hotdogs). When I use to ride dirt bikes, I would go home if I forgot my helmet. I ride a sportster on the street and never use a helmet. We all do dumb things.

edit:I decided to edit out how I bypassed the safety to use the fret sawblades. I don't think its wise to tell people how to bypass safety things. Lets just say its possible.

edit: I decided to edit out how I plan to bypass the safety to use the fret blades. I was thinking and don't think its wise to tell people how to bypass safety issues. Lets just say it can be done if done "safely".

In my opinion the Unisaw is the best table saw ever built. The new ones only tilt to the right but the old ones, which is what I learned on tilt to the left. Old ones are better.

Is Sawstop more expensive than a new, equal featured (except for the SS brake) Unisaw or a PM2000? It depends on which version you buy. Today's pricing from http://www.sawstop.com/products/compare/ and http://www.acmetools.com/:

SAWSTOP 10 In. 3 HP Industrial Cabinet Table Saw with 30 in. Fence Model# ICS31230
MSRP:$3,733.00

SAWSTOP 10 in. 3 HP Professional Cabinet Table Saw with 30 In. Fence Model# PCS31230-PFA30
MSRP: $2,979.00

DELTA 10In 3HP Unisaw with 36In Biesemeyer Fence Model# 36-L336
MSRP: $5,040.00
NOW: $3,419.99

POWERMATIC PM2000 3 HP 1PH Table Saw, with 30 In. Accu-Fence System Model# 1792002K
MSRP: $3,479.99
NOW: $2,899.99

If I had to buy a new cabinet saw today a Sawstop would be a no-brainer. Most of us don't need the heavy duty features of the ICS version of the SawStop. If you do need an ICS and can't deal with the price, find a used one. They're built like a tank and bearings, switches and belts are standard wear items and easily replaced. They pop up on Craigslist, industrial auction sites (tell them what you're looking for) and Woodworking related swap and sell sections. Also tell your local SS dealer you need one. Someone will invariably be upgrading/dying/getting out of the business and they will be in the chain of communication.

Keep the blood on the inside.

This company drives me nuts. I wish they would simply get off of it and sell this technology

http://www.whirlwindtool.com/2012/index ... &Itemid=44

Mike

That looks interesting, but I can see where there might be some problems using a power feeder for narrow ripping operations, and for using cutoff sleds.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Well, I don't think you will ever see it. This guy has been around a while and appears to have no interest in getting it licensed. My guess is there are real problems with the idea.

Todd made his point several posts back- you're spending more on a safety feature, and less on the saw.

If we forget the brake and take a closer look at "actual saw", here's how it stacks up:
Considering the assembled weights of the models you listed, both the Delta Unisaw and the Powermatic PM2000 outweigh the best offering of the SawStop (ICS) by close to a hundred pounds, and this is with the ICS having a wider table.
If you wish to bring the SawStop down to the same price range as the Delta and Powermatic offerings by considering the PCS, then the difference in mass increases even more (225+ pounds).

If somebody needs something, they begin the search for fulfillment. As always, those needs can and will vary, but I have yet to find someone who needs the abilities of a cabinet saw wish for a lighter saw.

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Always have plenty of sandpaper; it's rough out there!

+1 on Delta Unisaw - I have an X5 2 yr old .. theres not much that this baby cant do incl moldings, mine has the Biesmeyer 5' cabinet shop table/fence.I wouldnt have gotten this expensive add on,,, but it came with the saw - the saw also came with a rip and crosscut saw (brand new) - and a never used 8" dado set as well.... $1200 - I didnt need a saw this big really but at that price I couldnt resist.. the reason the guy was getting rid of it was his wife needed more room in the garage to store her crap - his loss my gain...
you can find good deals like this all the time on CL
PS cuts 4" laminated oak beams like butter....
Cheers
Charlie

I bought a used, made in Canada General. You don't see as many of them on the used market as Deltas ( so many more Delta vs. General sold ). Some of the older ones can be a good value. If you buy used, make sure that you can get replacement parts for it.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

With a 10" Blade in one pass?

I ended up going with a Delta Cabinet saw. Its one step down from the Unisaw with 2HP 220 single phase, and a 32" Unifence. I'll get some pics up as soon as I get it setup. Oh, and I ended up getting it for $800.

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Jason McGowan
M&S Guitars
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United States of America, looks like another silent night
As we're sung to sleep by philosophies that save the trees and kill the children....
Casting Crowns