Official Luthiers Forum!

So, I've been working on my guitar for about a year now and haven't got very far. Part of this is do to acquiring tools as needed. Part of this is do to other stuff coming up. But the largest parts are

1.) Not knowing how to make a guitar:

As in, hey while your plates are joining, might as well route the truss rod channel. Or just the general assembly steps.

2.) Not knowing how to make a guitar.

As in, oops. You read that wrong, so you you did it wrong. Do it again!


And while I'm okay with this, and expected it, I'm know in a position where I can afford to take a few weeks off and go to a school that offers a 6 day a week / 2 week course in building a guitar. I think this will help because I'll have in ideal of what it takes to do all steps. And I learn better from an instructor than I do from a book and youtube. (That's just the type of learner I am.)

Btw, Currently I'm looking at Colorado School of Lutherie and the American school of Lutherie. But am open to other ones I may have missed in my search.

A few questions.

Has anyone ever taken one of these types of courses?
Has anyone ever taken one of the types of courses that last a few months, but you only meet once a week?
Do you think it was worth it?
Would you recommend it?
What school would you recommend?

I've never taken a class like that, but if you're a beginner I think it would be very helpful for you to do so.
I was helped through my first build step by step (didn't know what I was asking at the time, thanks teach...)
The only bad thing I can think of is becoming fixated on methods learned in class and closing your mind to alternative means of construction.
I say go for it!

Two weeks? I have completed a two-week guitar building course with Jeffrey Yong (http://asiaguitar.wix.com/jeffrey-yong-guitars). The experience was unbelievable. While you don't turn into a Luthier after the course, you will receive great insights of guitar making in many aspects because Jeffrey shares freely his knowledge with the learners.

I have posted in a forum of my entire experience in the two-week guitar building course. Check out this weblink: http://www.guitar4christ.com/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=24&jfile=viewtopic.php&f=25&t=35396&hilit=jeffrey

You can see more pictures here: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.186888258110138.46083.181025948696369&type=3

Here is the guitar,

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Regards
aDAM

I think such courses can be quite helpful in getting you oriented. I took Frank Finnochio's one week course and built a steel string based on his own slightly rounder take on an OM (more OM than small jumbo, I'd say). I'd recommend that highly. Anything with Robbie O'Brien would be great. One week or two doesn't seem like much, but it does give you a lot of insight into the basic building strategy.

Now if Jose will just teach the course in Siguenza one more time ... ...

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I took a class from Rick Davis that lasted four or 5 weeks of three day weekends. It was by far the single most valuable action I took to progress my skills. There were two of us in the class, so there was a lot of hands on help. My build process is still only a derivative of what I learned in the class.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

While that certainly can be a great way to do it.... there are other ways too....

I would check out local Woodworking Guilds in your area... Many have shops where you can come work.... Many have shops full of power and hand tools that you can use - once you are a member.... This can help defray the cost of buying all your own tools....

The other thing is that Guitars are mostly wood working... and woodworking guilds like this are great for mentoring programs of one sort or another.... There's a whole lot of learning how to use table saws, routers, band saws, power sanders.... and even hand tools like chisels and planes ....

This can help get you some much needed practice on woodworking skills... and it can help you to keep from wasting most of that expensive 2 week guitar building class on "How do you make a hand saw work?" sort of stuff...

Next is to find a local Luthier who is willing to teach some techniques.... There are local luthiers who even offer classes on weekends for such things... and this can potentially be a whole lot easier to work into your schedule than a 2-week marathon...

I think the other thing I would do is to get some cheap "Student" grade guitar wood to practice on... There's nothing like the joy of tearing up a $75.00 Top set or a $150 back and sides set while you are learning how to thickness plane or joint plates.... Better to start off with some $4.99 home store 1/8" thick craft wood - and learn on that... Once you have your jointing and planing techniques sorted out - then move on to the better stuff.... I actually sawed up a couple 2x4's into thin strips and jointed up two "tops" out of the strips... 1 "top" was 15 pieces and the other was 18 pieces... By the end of making joints on 25 or 30 strips... you will have the technique pretty well sorted out.....

Thanks

Courses are great, even a week with the right teacher can shave years off your learning curve. It's really helpful to have attempted several builds or kits, before taking the course, you'll get a lot more out of it and know what questions to ask. Everything will make more sense.

It does not have to be a build course. I was amazed as to the volume if information I took way from the Charles Fox Contemporary Guitar Making course in 2004. It was an intensive week and we never really touched a piece of wood.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I took the same course as Terrence, partially on his recommendation here, very helpful. If you have some skills, tools and space to work, this course is great to get you in your shop and working with confidence and efficiency. It is great to have so many options.
Rob

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http://www.kalimbakit.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/comfyfootgr ... ature=mhee
http://www.facebook.com/robert.renick.7

I know you asked about guitar building courses, but....Ever thought of just buying a book or 3?
You can find the answers to every question you asked in a book.
How to build, what steps are involved, what order to follow, etc., etc.
I got Cumpiano's book for Christmas. Comprehensive doesn't even come close to describing it. I've read it through twice now, and working on a third go.
I would not even think of just opening the book and beginning to build. There's a lot there that I know I'd get wrong if I did that. But after my second read I understand it much better, and I'll read it again at least a couple more times. And when I build, I'll read each procedure through a couple of times before I start, and make sure I know exactly what I'm doing before I start.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't have the cash to throw at a two week crash course when everything I need to know I can find in a book (or two), and all I've got to do to make it work is take my time, read carefully, and not touch tool to wood until I've got the process down in my head.
I don't believe a two week course could teach me much more, and I believe that going through the process as decribed above I'll retain a whole lot more than I would from a two week crash course, regardless of who the teacher is.YMMV.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

Several weeks of hands-on instruction can go a long ways to helping you get to the point where you can build a decent guitar in a shorter time. There are other ways, of course, and nothing wrong with learning off of the internet or from books - that's what I did and am still doing. In the times I've had an opportunity to just talk with professional luthiers, like John Arnold and James Condino, I've learned a surprising amount in a very short time. I would love to have the opportunity to study with one of these guys for a few weeks or even a few days. My point is hands-on instruction can really boost your progress.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I had a series of sessions with a local luthier and built a steel string up to the finishing point. It probably added up to a two week course. We did four hours every Tuesday night for ten weeks plus two Saturdays all day. It was supposed to be a group class, but I was the only student for that period. So I got a lot personal attention, more than I wanted some times. The group before me had 5 students and the group after me had three. The class cost $600 for the classes plus $600 for materials. I was happy with the price. Top quality wood and tuners, and a custom built Cedar Creek case.
I had built a half dozen guitars before this class but I followed his techniques for the build, even if I disagreed with them. Since then, I incorporated some of his techniques into my process. We did a dovetail neck joint. I hadn't done one before and I haven't done one since. I'm a bolt-on butt joint kind of guy.


I learned a lot. Building techniques, new jigs, a new attitude about working a little slower, a great rosette process. And I'm happy with the guitar that came out of the experience.

While i would be thrilled to work with any actual luthier, i made my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th from cumpiano's book. I did have some wood working experience already. It took me a full 9 months to make my first. Nothing wrong with reading a book. Also there are one or two build alongs on Youtube. In fact you can learn how to sharped block planes, scraper and chisels on youtube. I have a 19 part tutorial on how to make a archery bow from a red oak board. Just goes to show you can find quite a bit of info on that site. persistence!!! thats the key.

Hello guys. I usually don’t weight in on these forums, but I felt compelled to offer my two cents worth. Take a class! Take the most comprehensive you can afford and/or have time for.

I grew up doing a fair amount of woodworking and know my way around a shop. I’m also lucky enough to have been playing music professionally for about the last 25 years and have always done a bit of the repair on my own instruments. I got interested in building several years ago and spent about a year reading building books from the mechanical (Cumpiano) to the Metaphysical (Somogyi) and toying in the shop. I didn’t get very far. The main problem seemed to be that, although the books were great, they were always missing that tiny amount of information that gives you the confidence to go to the next step. I spent a lot of time questioning whether I was interpreting the reading material correctly and whether I was missing anything detrimental. I knew I could build pretty wall hangings in the shapes of guitars but I wanted to build artistic instruments that played and sounded great……there in is the problem. Lack of knowledge and confidence is stagnating.

I realized that I needed hands on help. I looked and researched and finally found a luthier/builder in the Boston area named Sylvan Wells. He builds guitars under the Wells and BayState labels. The course is, amazingly, 10 days and is ONE ON ONE. With his course you end up with a playable OM or Dread. What I really got however was a hands on approach to making concepts such as neck angle, top and back radius, bracing, wood bending, inlay, binding, and setup (to name a very few) approachable and attainable at a professional level.

It is a fact that it would have taken me several years to get to the level I reached in one week with a builder like Sylvan. Several other posts echo these same sentiments about their teachers or courses.

I’ve now built several instruments on my own and continue with the building blocks I got from my course. Without the course, I might still be staring at a bare piece or rosewood.

Take a course, you won’t regret it.

I'm filling out my forum to go to the American school of Lutherie and take a course with Charles Fox.

Last week I found http://www.midwestguitar.com/, and went in and spoke to Michael. He also offers training, and was really nice and let me tour his shop.

I decided on the school in Portland over the one in St. Louis mainly because it would remove a lot of other distractions that would otherwise be going on. And in kinda of a strange twist, My wife will be out there (on the other side of of Portland from the school) to help her sister with the new baby. I was going to go out there late march and we were going to have a small vacation in my wind country and then head back.

The course finishes about the time I was going to go out there for the class.

Can't ignore signs like that.

Good deal! Enjoy! Charles Fox has a stellar rep!

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

I think one thing most take from a class is that there many things you don't know and to teach yourself you often have developed bad habits also an experienced hand can show you simple techniques that help in that fit and finish. Also not just learning hot how to build but the tooling and jigs you use. We all have our little tricks.
You will learn more in a good class that spending the same amount in materials trying to teach yourself.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

After studying Cumpiano's book for quite some time, and reading other books on the subject as well (Kinkade, and some other guy from England's boo) I decided to take Cumpiano's actual course, due to the fact that his mindset seemed to be quite in line with mine as far as minimal tooling and jigging was concerned, and I was correct.
I would hardly call it a crash course, as it was quite comprehensive.
He walked me through every little step along the way, and answered every question I had about materials and tools, and why he did what he did each step.
He also has made a few changes since his initial writing 20 odd years ago, in his workboard construction, as well as bracing layout and initial dimensions.
I had a ten year background building and repairing acoustics and electrics before taking his course, and I feel it was worth every penny.
Yes, you can read a book and piece it out bit by bit and eventually come to a finished product, but I feel the potential to misunderstand a concept or leave a step out and thereby build a bad initial guitar is always there, but that's true of any method. The problem is when you blame the methodology rather than your own execution, and I think that's where having a helping hand can come in handy.
Also, his course was one on one, just the two of us, not distractions.
I came away with a good foundational knowledge on which to build, that was complete enough by itself to start building guitars on my own right away, and also, what I learned has helped me in my repair business as well.
And I didn't have to go home and buy/build a bunch of bulky expensive jigs and specialized tools in order to put into practice what I learned, I already had most of the tools right in the shop from my repair business.
Not that those things are bad, some people quite like them, and I can see the attraction, but they are simply unneccessary to produce a perfectly playing instrument.

I do like Trevor Gore's books as well, if he were in the states and offered a luthierie course here, I'd likely try to attend also.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Yup!

Took a 2 week course to kick start my building, - best start I think I could have had.
Plus ended up with a guitar I still play.

Should have taken more notes at the time, but made up for that with the Gore books.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I want to hear from all the self taught luthiers, who are busy making guitars, where are you??

I just finished my first, totally built from scratch. Cut, dried & milled all the wood except for the top & bracing. I learn something (mostly the hard way ) every time I'm in the shop.

I started the hobby a dozen years ago with the help of a few books, woodworking experience but limited tools and money. For the first guitar I spent half my time in the shop and half on the internet. At the time a lot of luthiers were starting to document their building process on their web sites and I found it really helpful to see all the different ways people were skinning the cat. The other thing that was helpful throughout the first 4 or 5 guitars was the generosity of professional builders - some through the forum, others kindly responding to emails. From most builders, if you asks a specific and intelligent question you'll receive an excellent and generous response. But you can't start and email relationship with a pro and expect them to talk you through building a guitar when you don't even know where to start.

Which is why I think you should take a course. If you've got the time and cash it's going to be worth every penny. You've received some excellent recommendations here (one on one with Sylvan Wells would be like packing a year's apprenticeship into 10 days, I imagine). Here in Canada I think that Sergie de Jonge also offers short, intensive courses.

You won't regret it.

Phil

I am from that group, I used the internet, John Mayes DVDs and several books to get the 1st few guitars completed. Having retired from a skilled trade, a life time of model airplane building and having a friend that had built a few instruments to ask questions gave me the confidence to build. That said it would have been great to have taken some training as it would have helped shorten the learning curve by being pointed in the best direction.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

I spent a week at Vermont Instruments, with George Morris, a LONG live-in week with late nights, but it was amazing. Small class, there were 4 of us, so we had a huge amount of attention, and George builds a guitar alongside, to be able to demonstrate everything himself first. Not only left with a beautiful guitar, but George was incredibly generous with helping us to make our own tools & jigs, to be able to keep working at home once we were done. The process literally started with everyone drafting every piece of their own instrument from scratch, from shape and profile, to all bracing and scale, and finished with French Polishing it. The emphasis is on simplicity of tooling, and avoiding the use of expensive specialized equipment. When I got home, I sold about half the stuff (all "necessities") I had bought on EBay and replaced it with my far superior homemade tooling. I had built two guitars before, the course probably took 10 years off of my learning curve, and saved me more than it's cost in mistakes and unnecessary tools. Another thing to consider is that while I built my first two from books, and cosmetically they were OK, there is nothing like having someone really expert help voice 4 or 5 guitars with you to start you on getting the sound right. Don't know about other courses, but mine was SO worth the time and expense.

I have Cumpiano's book. It's what the main resource I'm using for this build. I've read through it completely once, and then once before the section I'm about to work on, and then once more after I messed that up to find out what I missed or misread.

It's a great resource for sure. However, I'm the type of learner who leans better in a class room / lab environment. The whole tell me how to do it, let me ask questions, show me how to do it, let me ask questions, and then watch me do it, correct when I'm wrong works well for me.

It is a bit more than I normally would spend, but since my wife would be up there and I would have bought a plane ticket up there anyway, It's not too bad.

I am breaking into my Cadillac ATS-V fund. But it's not like I NEED a new car....

I am also from the self taught, now a full time builder road of hard knocks ... my engineering background helps some, but it was more a state of mind and a willingness to take it slow, and build up some chops as I went along. The ability to see things and how they work or how they can be done is something that is hard to teach ... your mind either works that way or it doesnt.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"