Official Luthiers Forum!

They also have a bar.

You drink a beer, I'll eat a steak.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

That was my point.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Sorry Brian, Your point was that since there was no back on the guitar there was no hope that it would hold 140 lbs. of string tension?

I'm confused by the wording but I think I get what you're trying to say and I appreciate your help.

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Thank You and Best To All

Hey Larry, just curious how you set the angle on the guitar already?
Did you dome the dome the top?
What was the procedure?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I domed the top from the waist to the lower bout (25' rad) and flattened the top from the waist to the neck block using a flat UTB and sanding the rims flat as well. I clamped the top to test and found the neck angle was almost perfect. I then glued the top, using spool clamps and tested again. Still very good angle after gluing so I began to cut and set the neck, all this with, of course, no back on it.

I didn't realize how easy it was to change the neck angle with the flex of the neck block until I set the guitar, with neck attached down on a neck rest and that changed the neck angle enough that I knew it was going to be important/difficult to get the back glued on and preserve that neck angle.

Hope that answers your question.

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Thank You and Best To All

I built 14 guitars my first year and learned a lot by doing things wrong until I learned to do things right. When you force a neck block to an attached top you will change geometry on the top by moving the block. I was trainded at CF Martin and Custom Pearl Inlay with David Nichols. Investing in class time will help you . The cost of the class will more than pay for itself.
It is easier to adjust the neck angle to the body than the body angle to the neck.. Learned that on the 2nd guitar. I had to burn that one. If you pull the bottom on the neck block the top will rise pushing it longer it will dip the upper part of the top down. You may be best adjusting the top geometry and closing the box then adjust the neck angle to what you have.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Sorry, poor response, especially on the net. What I think is wrong is trying to establish a precise angle, in this case the neck angle on a non rigid structure, ie the sound box without a major structural component(the back). A mere .006" on average in change of angle along the heel will yield the 0.1 degree change in neck angle I mentioned earlier. That's a mighty fine tolerance. Even if you could get the neck through a mold that was supporting the body and align it, and manage to fit everything perfectly I don't think a dimensional change of .010" or even more would be out of line when removed from the mold/fixture. Spring accumulated in the plates simply from the clamp pressure used to glue them on could easily do this. So in essence I had hoped you would have had an epiphany, having just typed the phrase....

What was wrong in that scenario was that there was no back on the guitar at that stage

Feel free to follow your own path and try this method if you think it will work. I just don't see enough precision in the whole operation, and this is a precise game. Where else do you here woodworkers talk about measuring wood by the thousandth of an inch?

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

I'm just thinking that having started a particular methodology, IE domed top, outside mold, you're best off simply completing the steps consistent with that methodology.

Simply chuck it back in the mold, glue the back on, transfer the neck angle to the heel. You may have to re-drill some holes, but that's not so bad.

You may find that the neck angle still works.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Saves space.

Saves time.

You can make your neck block and bolt holes ahead of time, and insure the holes line up.

3 advantages.



When you coming over?

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Always appreciate your feedback John but for some reason I'm not making the situation clear. I have already "adjusted the neck angle to the body" and will not, and have no intention of "forcing the neck block to an attached top." In fact my challenge is to NOT force the neck block, but instead try and keep it exactly the way it is through the clamping process. It will be hit or miss for exactly the reasons Brian explains but I'm in pretty deep at this point and worse case is I have to re-adjust the neck angle which hopefully will remain pretty close to where it is now when gluing on the back.

Again always appreciate the help and feedback and I have admit it's been quite a long time since I read someone claim there was a 'right' way to build guitars, but I can tell you now that this is probably one of the 'wrong' ways to build. I'll find out pretty soon. Thanks Again

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Thank You and Best To All

Brian, First, thank you for taking the time to clarify your post, I appreciate the energy and effort to do so. Second, you could not have described the situation and upcoming challenge more exactly.

I'll follow this path simply because I headed down it out of ignorance, so I'm all in at this point. I don't have many options other than "trying this method" considering the stage at which the guitar is in but I will not try it in the future for, again, exactly the reasons you articulated so well above. Thanks again for the help and input.

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Thank You and Best To All

That's the plan Todd.

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Thank You and Best To All

When you build a classical guitar with a traditional Spanish heal you close the back with the neck attached. I have adopted this method on the first few steel strings I built such that I would bolt the neck on the guitar making sure the angle was set correctly and then glue the back on. So in a way it's a similar process except that I have the neck attached, the angle set, and the whole piece clamped in place on the open work board before closing the back.

I don't use this method any more. I close the back then get the neck right but it did work just fine. And in any case if there was a slight discrepancy it was easy enough to just get the angle right.

Appreciate the comment. Pretty sure I'll abandon the method from now on as well but will hope for good results as you illustrate.

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Thank You and Best To All

Kind of a stretch on true space savings, most people store some wood to make components out of, or the component blanks themselves, so the milled components wouldn't take up any more space, but understand you had a need to vent, so I took the bait for you. I was hoping you'd have a stronger response. I'm actually a little disappointed.

As far as the accuracy of the method goes, any method can be accurate, as long as the builder is accurate.

But you just made great case for butt joints. I think you should switch!

I personally don't like them, but I could get used to them, I think.

I personally like making the neck tenon and reinforcing it, I rather enjoy the process.

And that's the real point for most of us, isn't it? Personal enjoyment?

So even if it DID take me longer to do certain steps accurately, the personal satisfaction of a job well done and the thankfullness to my Creator for making me the way I am increases as well.



Some of these guys are pretty stick on their methodology and are extremely tool dependant. Take away one tool, and they're stuck.
Me too to a degree, for instance, take away my chisel, and I don't know what to do.

But I still prefer to be more flexible.

Frankly, I can see you building a workboard and a matching shim, to which you can clamp the top down with a shoe to maintain the neck angle, like this picture, and closing the back with spool clamps, if you make your workboard flush enough, but that's just me. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I have no problem with Stock's and Blues's methods either. Being proficient and familiar with both makes me more flexible, I think.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

picture worth a 1000 words.
that makes things much clearer . You have much to learn and it can be a fun and at times a frustrating journey..

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Not my (OP) guitar or my set up but I agree, picture worth 1000 etc.

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Thank You and Best To All

The difference is, if someone wants to build with an outside mold, I don't belittle them, or tell them that since they're doing it differently than I would, they don't have a snowball's chance of building a good guitar.
If I had tried the outside mold method once or twice, got mediocre results, and switched to my current build methodology, I wouldn't tell people that the outside mold/radius dish method was intrinsically flawed and unable to produce a good result simply because my results were poor, especially considering the fact of all the guitars that have successfully been made using those techniques would nullify my criticism. I would have to think that maybe the problem was my execution, not the methodology.

Yet, that's exactly what you do. You've made a few guitars that you weren't completely satisfied with using one method, so you switched, and now you insult people who don't use your method, despite the thousands of guitars in existence that have been made using workboards, that play and sound as good as any guitar in existence, and I'm not talking about my own guitars. You're unwilling to consider that maybe your execution was flawed.

Frankly, I feel like I would know how to take Larry's guitar and neck, and build a one-time use workboard specifically to put the back on this guitar while maintaining the neck angle, and execute it properly.

Larry could too, but if he looks up to you as a builder sufficiently, he might be unwilling to try based on your negative opinion.

Doesn't mean he has to switch to using workboards exclusively, but he might overlook a possible solution to his current dilemma, because of your negativity.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

♫ Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya...

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

As was pointed out, traditional Spanish guitar construction glues the back on last. Although it generally uses a work board, a simple straight board with the appropriately sized spacer blocks at the nut, body/ neck joint, and bridge positions to set the string height can be used in its place. With the neck and body clamped to this simple jig you can see the amount the sides will be distorted (if any) and adjust the neck angle to eliminate it. You can keep it clamped to this jig when gluing the back on to maintain the proper neck angle.
I have used the work board method a few times, but generally use an outside mold, and complete the body before attaching the neck.

That's quite the rant you got going there.

Perhaps you need the help of a professional?

Truthfully, you lost me with the gish gallop but anyway...

Suffice to say I am not setting up straw men, I'm responding to your actual arguments.

I don't have time to look them up, I'm not retired, but it usually goes like this:

Someone posts a question wondering about the Cumpiano method as a viable alternative for someone who has a small shop and doesn't want to buy/make a vast array of go-bar decks, radius dishes, outside molds, and bulky neck angle jigs, and the associated power tools required to make everything work correctly.

Your response is usually along the lines of "I made two guitars using that method, and I can tell you from experience that it is unreliable, imprecise, and next to impossible to get repeatable results with. I've adopted the approach that actually works, and is best for me and my students. Cumpiano, you suck!!!"

Okay, maybe you don't say Cumpiano sucks, but I'm not setting up a straw man.

This is your actual argument.

The response to that is "I use Cumpiano's method. I get great results. My neck angle is precise, the action is great, and it's repeatable and reliable. Plus, the neck can be made straight from the nut to the end of the fretboard without having to measure and transfer angles."

My response is than characerized as being neophytic in nature and rigid in approach.

Frankly, you are the one setting up straw men.

You're the one rigidly stuck with a particular approach.

I actually can build with outside molds and go bar decks, but I choose not to. Another local builder uses that stuff and he has a 1000 square foot workshop in his back yard to accomodate it, but I don't have the space.
I would also not dissuade anyone from using it nor question their results without ever having seen one of their guitars.



Well, that's exactly what I've BEEN saying.

I'm glad you agree. You usually don't put it that way.

Also, I don't have to have seen and played every guitar on earth to make certain assertions, that's just goofy.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Anyone who has a guitar with a properly attached neck, please join in!

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

Quote mining.

Politicians do it all the time.

Curiously, I noticed that when you described your process and mentioned that your necks are dead straight all the time, I didn't argue with you.

I also have never impugned the abilities of anyone who started using the workboard and then soon switched.

Perhaps you can mine a quote where I insult somebody specifically because they use molds and radius dishes?

Trevor's responses (do we have to drag himn into this?) were specific to an actual concern he had that he read in the book, that Cumpiano himself addressed on his website, and when I posted the solution that I was using, he said it looked "better". He seems to be a gentleman. I've never felt insulted by anything he's said, and he's actually quite helpful.

I bought his book after one discourse we had where he very eloquently made his point. I unfortunately was not so nice, but I'm not perfect.

I hope he forgives me, it seems he has, although he's such a gentleman that I would likely not know if he hadn't.

You however, Todd Stock, can be downright nasty, and you haven't presented all your quotes.

You've left out quite a few.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Speaking of quotes, Will Rogers once said "when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging".

Something to consider, TGW.