Official Luthiers Forum!

I thought it was pretty good. When the guy came to collect it he said it sounded worse than before, and when he played it, it did! I turned it over and re-did some of the error mapping left handed and got different results. Don't ask, I don't know! So I got him to play all the notes and did the error mapping again, fixed the intonation (again) and he was delighted. When he played it, it sounded fine, when I played it upside down (with reverse chords) it didn't.

That's precisely why I said you need to check the instrument in playing position(in this case, held lefty). Many guitars, and especially those with heavy headstocks and/or thin and/or weak necks noticeably change when checked on their backs, VS in playing position. In this case, you were holding it right handed, so the headstock's mass was pulling the neck toward the floor in exactly the opposite direction that the (left handed) player was going to, thereby doubling the error.

Todd made a excellent point when he said that many, if not very much most, intonation/compensation errors are player-specific. I've "fixed" at least as many "can't get it to play in tune" guitars by teaching the player how to tune his/her guitar specifically for how they play it, than I have by actually working on their guitar. Way too many players think they can tune-up with an electronic tuner(and typically they'll have a cheap unit with near-dead batteries... Ughhh!) and the guitar should be in perfect tune, but it just isn't so. A perfect example is me, myself. My left hand's ring finger is very strong, too strong, and I don't have the fine muscle control necessary to prevent that finger from sharping a fretted note more than my other fingers do. So I compensate for it with how I tune, which changes slightly when I change keys. I won't always bother to tweak the tuning between one key and another, since I'll often just find the happy medium and call it good, and go forward with the whole reason of playing guitar, which is to make music. But if I were to record something, I'll tweak as needed to get myself as "in tune" as I can get.

As a player, I do!
It always bugged me when I used to play a git with frets
when I played a D chord.
Check it out.
Out of tune!

IMO, grumpy's responses have been the most spot on about this rather convoluted subject...

the mathematics required to correctly model the phenomena associated with a fretted string being in tune would be intense to say the least (needing math teachings that the vast majority of humans haven't been exposed to, and are not capable of understanding)...and would require actual measurements of physical properties of both individual instruments and players to be plugged into any derived algorithm...

I will go out on a limb and say that Todd Stock's statement of "but it's usually to correct for his or hers bad habits rather than any issue with the guitar." is treading on very thin ice...anybody care to detail just how many "bad habits" Jimi Hendrix had?...enough said!

I think the best any luthier can do is to set up each instrument for the player that is paying for it...in my eyes that is his/her job!...I don't know how many times in the past I've either had to hold my tongue or actually taken the time to take the head off of a repair tech that tried to defend their "work" by blaming any "errors" on the customer...

I`m not sure if this is a bad habit,But I saw Jimi Hendrix play the guitar with his teeth live in San Diego back in I think it was 1967.Probably had some major dental bills.Hard to forget something like that

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I'm with Todd on this one. Often times correcting bad playing habits is a way to "fix" the instrument. Once the guitar is set up and adjusted correctly the rest is up to the player, and quite often the way they play creates it's own issue. They need to be shown how the instrument functions so that they can play it correctly. When the light goes on it opens up a whole new world for them sometimes.

The trick is to explain it to them from a purely mechanical functional standpoint so as not to insult their playing ability.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

seriously?

would you actually have the cojones to suggest to any well known and established player that they change their playing style to accommodate a guitar that you built and set up? methinks that at the very least you would lose a customer, and at worst would lose reputation...

not that I am a well known player by any means, but let me give you an example of what I alluded to when dealing with a guitar repairmen years ago when I was unable to do a fret job on one of my guitars...it was about 10 years old and after much playing had more than a fair share of wear on the frets and needed work...I told the person in question to NOT touch the saddle and that I would make any adjustments needed after loss of fret height after he completed his work...he decided that he should set up the guitar "properly"...this meant an action that was way too low for my playing characteristics, and too boot the dillhole decided he would do me the 'favor' of changing the breaking points (so of course it would intonate properly as a 'properly' set up guitar should) on the saddle...uh huh...I about took his head off...here's the gist of it all (besides the fact that I ended up having to make a new saddle)...I am a very energetic player and because of that I use a fairly high saddle, and too boot I am very guilty of mashing down the strings with my left hand...this obviously means I have to set up a guitar and intonate it for MY playing characteristics...no issues when that is done...BIG issues when some !@#$%^&*() implies I have to change my playing style so that his work is correct...yeah, sure...I (or anyone else for that matter) is going to completely change years and years of unique playing and style so that some repairman can feel good...

do you get the gist of the point being made here? the above is of course a totally different situation than a brand new guitar being made to order...I told the misanthrope to NOT do something, and he did (for whatever reason)...in the case of a brand new guitar said situation would simply strengthen the attitude Ervin Somogyi has about supplying an instrument, which is to thoroughly understand the client as opposed to feeling he is God Almighty...simply good customer relations, neh?

Mike, you're the perfect example of what Todd is stating....

The only difference is that you appear to be aware that your playing needs a different setup, while most players who have intonation/tuning issues don't. They blame the instrument.

If you were to walk into my shop, and said your guitar never pays in tune, I would first tune it as close to perfect as I can, then hand it back to you. Now, I would quietly observe.... Obviously, every note you would fret would go sharp, so i would stop you, take the guitar, and check it. If the intonation were "correct", I'd sit down face to face, and explain that you're too aggressive or fret too hard. I would then ask if you're willing to try to change how you play. If you said no, then I'd explain that I'll have to set up your guitar to intonate flat, and that I need to know what key you play in most of the time. From there, it's all a matter of -me- finding that happy medium that you have found for yourself(but in the fictional example above, you didn't have the knowledge to find on your own).

See what I mean? How long did it take you to figure it all out? the tuning you need, how to setup and compensate your own guitar to your playing? Right! It wasn't overnight.... As luthiers, we need to do it in as short a time as possible, and more often than not, for a player who has no clue...

You mention Hendrix....

A musician at that level can more often than not self compensate in real-time. they can fret a note and back-off or add finger pressure instantly to bring the note into proper tune. If too far out they will often reach up and flatten the string with a quick twist, then bend the notes on that string into proper tune. When the song is over, they'll tune it back up and correctly, but you get the idea. I do this exact thing if I'm playing on stage somewhere, and there's a youtube of me and my wife that I saw myself doing just that. I had no clue I'd done it until I saw the video a year later, but listening now I can tell the 6th string was a bit sharp so when I had a chance I backed it down and then played the rest of the song by bending the 6th string into tune. I play upright bass(IE: fretless) more often than not, so I guess this comes automatically to me. And if I can do this stuff without even knowing I did it, I have no doubt that Jimi could, and did. Having played backwards all his life, I'm sure he automatically compensated himself, and how he tuned, instead of yelling at guitar techs....

It always bugged me when I used to play a git with frets
when I played a D chord.
Check it out.
Out of tune!


Do you strum all 6 strings when playing a "D" chord? Bet you do... That will make the best intonated guitar in the world sound sour, because there's no "E" note in a "D" chord. So don't note(or "strum") the 6th string. Just because there are 6 strings on a guitar doesn't mean all 6 should be noted(strummed/played) all the time.

Strumming a "C" chord? No "high E"(first string) please....

Again, the player has a lot to do with tuning and intonation "issues"...

Now, to Mr. Wisperer..

Yes and yes, and no and no.

Yes, the players' habits may be the cause, and it -should- be up to the player to learn to play a "perfectly" intonated guitar in tune.

But no, it's not always possible.

Many of us have physical limitations that prevent that from happening., So, this is where you, the luthier, needs to educate the player as much as you can, while also listening to what his/her needs are. It's usually obvious when you have someone who's not a good musician and will blame you and/or the guitar for everything. When that happens, walk away. Screw 'em; they ain't worth it. And it will also be obvious when our little talk will hit home with someone who will understand, and go forth and work at changing their playing. And once more, it will be obvious and clear when you are talking with someone who know their issues, have tried to overcome them but cannot, and now need the guitar's intonation to be customized to their exact needs.

What we're trying to do here is to show you both how to recognize the need, and how to fix it. In the end, the physical fix is quite simple(math...), but the other half is a trick...

I need to write a book....

I love the way people fly off the handle based on 3 sentences.

Mike, I talk to my customers, learn how they play, and make the guitar do as best as it can for them without insulting them.

In the case of someone like you who frets too hard and strums too hard, I'll show them on the tuner that squeezing makes the frets go sharp. If they strum too hard, I'll show them on the tuner that the harder you pluck a string, the sharper it vibrates for longer before resolving to the median pitch, then going flat at the decay. Most people that play that way learned on instruments with really high action that was badly intonated to start with, and when they bring it to me and describe the problems they're having it's because they are finding that they want lower action and are beginning to be able to tell the difference between good and bad intonation, and they welcome the insights.

A well known and established player in my experience has figured things out by now, and they usually know what they want, and I just do what they want. I don't have to teach them anything. If someone tells me not to touch something, I won't.



Oh geez. That's not even CLOSE to what I said.

But even if it were, yes, I actually told a well known and established player that with what they were trying to do, lower action and a lighter touch would allow them to pull off the riffs and scales that they were trying to play much easier. I set his guitar up to 3/64ths on the treble side and 4/64ths on the bass side after levelling his frets and straightening his neck.

He thanked me, and since then I've refretted all his instruments with stainless steel frets and set them all up.

You would have told me to go to Hell, and that's fine with me.

And I don't think I'm God Almighty.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Mario,

Just cut the nut end of the fretboard about .020" shorter than the theoretical ideal, and all will be golden. If you use wide, "fat" frets, consider perhaps .030"....

When doing this do you just slide the fingerboard towards the nut by .020" after the cut or make the nut that much thicker?
Thanks,
Brad

Brad, I do it(cut the extra .020") when making the fretboard, so it's all just part of the build. But if done on an existing guitar, yes, a thicker nut will be required.

Thanks for the response, Mario. I'm at the stage in a build where I'm ready to start rough shaping the neck and putting everything together. So, in this case I would just cut it shorter and go about the rest as if everything was normal?
Thanks again.

Grumps, If you took all your posts and put em together you`d already have the makings of a pretty dang good book.

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

whisperer....

your use of the word "correctly" is what gave me a bad impression of your feelings on the subject...

truly, is there some "correct" way to play a guitar (let's skip the whole classical player routine...)...I don't think there is per se...the goal is to (in the case of a musician like me who greatly prefers to express his/her emotions via original music as opposed to being in a cover band) create sounds that at the very least the player enjoys...yes, I strum pretty damned hard...some have accused me of beating the hell out my guitars...the rub being there are very few scratches across the top from by pick...the point being I have it pretty well under control...of course this 'style' requires a high action to prevent string buzzing, and the whole thing is exacerbated by my heavy left hand on the frets...

yes, I am quite aware of it all...considering that most people enjoy my playing I rather find it offensive when somebody infers that I play my chosen instrument "incorrectly"...again, is there really some correct way of playing?...I have taken this whole scenario in the context of a custom/luthier built guitar as opposed to any factory made one...hence my attitude that any luthier worth his/her salt should be aware that in the big picture (and skipping all attitude about some 'perfect' guitar) making the customer happy is what it is all about...and if it is at all possible to set up your instrument so that the player sounds his/her best, then what is the issue?

for those that are curious, please feel free to make judgement on my playing:
http://www.2shared.com/audio/5kCdqgXJ/H ... sing_.html
the song was meant to be a demo and was approached as such...I truly wished that I had spent a couple of more minutes on the lame a$$ solo as it was put there merely as a reference for my wife to know where NOT to sing...lol...it does quite well reflect both the soft and hard sides of my playing..

grumpy,

your thoughts are of course valid...playing in tune in rough situations is certainly a valuable ability..isn't that piece of gray matter between our ears such a wonderful thing?

perhaps I should have used Jimmy Page as a better example...I have plenty of bootlegs of him playing way out of tune (not that this reflects his abilities in any grand way..)...the point of course being that one should perhaps tread very carefully when critiquing any player's style...I've always been successful in setting up my guitars and figure all things being equal a good luthier (which I will define as a person doing it for a living) should also be able to do so when required...

Proper left hand position is critical.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx4cRw6TIIg

+1 Todd

I've always been successful in setting up my guitars and figure all things being equal a good luthier (which I will define as a person doing it for a living) should also be able to do so when required...

I've been repairing and doing setups for about 21 years, and I can state for fact that the vast majority of players who seek a luthier for tuning/intonation issues with their guitar usually have no issues with the guitar, but a lack of understanding of how their playing and tuning can affect the guitar. Made worse by the electronic tuner....! Players like you, who've figured it out, don;t typically seek a luthier's help on this subject, unless there's some machining(IE: re-cut the saddle slot, cut the fretboard shorter at the nut, etc...) required. So, the first thing we do is talk to the client. It becomes obvious, very quickly, if they understand how their playing and tuning affects things, and what the guitar's limitations are. If they're clueless about their own role in it, they are always happy with, and appreciative of, the 15 minute lesson in playing and tuning. If they're truly up to speed and the guitar is really at fault, then cool, we get to make money and actually fix something! And if the guitar's fine, but they have a physical limitation(like my ring finger), then cool again... More income for the luthier!

But first, we must seek the simplest solution, and that is the player. We work forward from there....

When you turn the key and the car won't start, first check to see that there's gas in the tank before you change the fuel pump, ya know?(believe it or not, I once worked with a guy who -admitted- that he changed 3 fuel pumps on his truck before he realized the gas tank was empty...)

If using a saddlematic to locate the bridge, this .020" needs to be added back to the jig setting, correct? Also, I have seen differing opinions on how to use it. I think the instructions say to locate the front edge of the saddle and I have read that some prefer to use the same measurement to locate the center of the saddle. Which is better?

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

Time to revisit an old thread.

I got the Gore/Gilet books, and have been compensating nuts with good results based on the explanations they gave. It works.

Basically, fretting a string at the first fret causes the pitch to go more sharp than you might think, because of the relatively large angle the string makes coming off the nut. As you go up the fretboard from there, the pitches just get sharper. If you graph out the situation you'll get a rising line.

Compensating the saddle by moving it further from the 12th fret than it 'should' be causes all of the pitches to drop. The effect at the first fret is small, and it becomes greater as you go up the frets because the added distance is larger in proportion to the shorter string length. Plotting out the intonation with a compensated saddle shows that it decreases the slope of the line, but does not help much in the lower fret positions.

You could simply shift all the frets back toward the nut and re-tune to make all the fretted notes flatter. It turns out that if you shift them all back by the same amount the intonation of each note goes flatter by about the same number of cents. Shifting all the frets 'north' is the same as shifting the nut 'south' and re-tuning, and shifting the nut is easier.

The amount the strings go sharp when they're fretted will vary depending on several variables. It's possible to calculate it, but you can also make a rig with a movable nut and saddle, and fixed first, 11th and 12th frets, and measure. If you make the first fret movable, you can use it for a lot of different scale lengths (the distance from the 11th to the 12th doesn't change that much over a 'normal' range of scales).

I set mine up for the scale I'm going to use, mount a string, and get it in tune with the action right. I adjust the saddle location until the note when it's fretted at the 12th fret is exactly an octave above the open note. Then I adjust the nut location to get an exact semitone. This throws the saddle location off, so that has to be adjusted a little, which changes the nut intonation slightly. I go 'round and 'round a few times until the adjustments get too small to worry about, and note the final locations of the nut and saddle. This is done for each string.

Movement of the top can also throw the intonation off a little, so I usually make the nut to match the numbers from the rig, and compensate the saddle with the strings in place in the usual way. Obviously you need to cut a little off the end of the fingerboard to move the nut up for the largest offset, and then notch the nut back for the rest of the strings.

I did a 12-string that way last spring and had it at the Montreal show. The octaves were in tune all the way up the neck, sounding like a Wes Montgomery solo, and nothing was off by more than 3 cents. We've done a copule of other 12s that way since, and it's really a treat to play one that's in tune.

Casey, do not add the .020" back on to the saddlematic. When compensating the nut, the saddle compensation will be reduced. Not sure it will be exactly .020".

Chuck

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OK,
I got totally lost trying to fathom all of this, including the "Kiss" reference.
It would be easier if everyone just started playing the keyboard rather than the guitar.
Problem solved, (although the keyboard is really not an instrument).
I remember seeing a guitar with compensated frets a long time ago: the frets were kinked all over the fretboard in the "perfect" location. It was pretty silly looking.

My question is what is the "book"? I a newbie and love to read books. I have seen this reference before.
Thanks,
Dan

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

The Book is Australian luthier Trevor Gore's brainchild (along with a co=author who's name I can't remember right now). Google Trevor Gore guitars. His website sells and describes "The Book".