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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Hey guys. I'm in the process of building a buffing machine and found a cheap source for 1" go kart axles to use as the shaft. Thought I'd pass it along in case anyone is interested.

This one should definitely work:
http://www.bmikarts.com/1-Steel-Live-Axle_p_517.html

I actually went even cheaper as I'm pretty sure this one will work (I also bought a couple of lock collars and a couple of lock nuts to go with it):
http://www.bmikarts.com/Axle-Shaft--1-x ... p_518.html

Hope this is helpful to someone.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Holy carp! How do they sell those 1" axles for $20-$25?

I may just order one and put it away till I'm ready to build the wall monster!
Thanks for the tip


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Yeah, they were the cheapest by at least 50% that I could find.

Starting with nothing, I'll be just under $250 on this build. That includes wheels, compounds, motor...everything I'll need to be up and running. Not too bad. About half the parts/supplies have arrived and the rest should be here by the middle of next week. Hoping to be testing it out by next weekend.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:34 pm 
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So what are you using for a motor? I assume that's the most expensive part. I've been trying to get my hands on some motors from the place I work but every time I come across one the motor it's 3 phase.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:11 pm 
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I picked up a NOS 1/4 hp delta motor off of ebay for $46 delivered. It's pristine-never been run. From reading threads on past builds it sounds like 1/4hp should do it. As a matter of fact I believe it's what John Hall recommends since the lack of torque makes it harder to burn your finish and less likely to pull the instrument out of your hands and throw it should you catch an edge.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:14 pm 
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AnthonyE wrote:
So what are you using for a motor? I assume that's the most expensive part. I've been trying to get my hands on some motors from the place I work but every time I come across one the motor it's 3 phase.


Does not have to be, at lease no order of magnitude thing. Browse ebay. You are not looking for a big beefy motor. No more than 1/2 HP. I still want to do one of those swing out wall models. Nothing more than the frame hinged at the bottom to let it swing away from wall when in use. With the rod that inexpensive, you should be able to come in well under $200. Assuming you have wood around your shop you can repurpose.

Mike


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:15 pm 
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WilliamS wrote:
Yeah, they were the cheapest by at least 50% that I could find.

Starting with nothing, I'll be just under $250 on this build. That includes wheels, compounds, motor...everything I'll need to be up and running. Not too bad. About half the parts/supplies have arrived and the rest should be here by the middle of next week. Hoping to be testing it out by next weekend.


Please keep us informed. I am interested in how well that shaft performs (how straight, etc).


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Mike O'Melia wrote:
With the rod that inexpensive, you should be able to come in well under $200. Assuming you have wood around your shop you can repurpose.

Mike

I'd agree with that if you're talking just the machine but the Menzerna bars are pretty pricey. With delivery I paid $64 for 2, well more than the motor, shaft, pillow blocks, etc. and a bit more than the four 14" wheels. I think it would be pretty tough to be up and running for under $200 unless you or a friend already had some components laying around.

But still, you can't complain about spending $250 for what is more or less what stewmac sells for $626. Sure, it won't be quite as pretty but hopefully it'll get the job done just as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Those axles are a great idea!
The one drawback may be how little thread they have (the one you got only has 1", while the others have about 2"). None of them have a side with reverse threads.

I ended up buying stuff from McMaster to build mine, although the parts weren't cheap. However, I went with a 1-1//4" shaft to handle the larger wheels that Grizzly sells. I also went with several variable pulleys, so that I could get the wheel rpm down to 400-600. This gives me the same "tip speed" with 16-20" wheels as the StuMac unit gets with the 10-12" wheels (actually, I can go lower). The down side is that it cost me $250, not including the motor (or polish, etc).

Does anyone have a link to anywall mounted units, or how to build them?
I was going to weld up a pedestal, but the wall concept sounds intriguing!
Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Rienk wrote:
The one drawback may be how little thread they have (the one you got only has 1", while the others have about 2"). None of them have a side with reverse threads.


For the model I went with I also bought 2 lock collars (for inside the wheels) and 2 lock nuts (for outside). I think the collars should do the job and from what I've read, folks using lock nuts haven't had a problem with not having reverse threading on one side.

I'll be running 14" wheels and with my pulley setup I'll have 2 speeds: 860 rpm and something lower-600 and change (I'd have to go back and look). I think I'll be fine but we'll see soon enough and that's something that can be easily and inexpensively corrected.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:58 pm 
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WilliamS wrote:
For the model I went with I also bought 2 lock collars (for inside the wheels) and 2 lock nuts (for outside). I think the collars should do the job and from what I've read, folks using lock nuts haven't had a problem with not having reverse threading on one side.
I'll be running 14" wheels and with my pulley setup I'll have 2 speeds: 860 rpm and something lower-600 and change (I'd have to go back and look). I think I'll be fine but we'll see soon enough and that's something that can be easily and inexpensively corrected.

Collars should work great.
FPM is the important variable - and like you - I want to have some options.
Going with the 1-1/4" shaft, I don't have as many options for pulleys, and they are much more expensive (I also have to go with a double pulley system); sticking with a 1" shaft is probably a much better value proposition.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Filippo Morelli wrote:
Rienk wrote:
I ended up buying stuff from McMaster to build mine, although the parts weren't cheap.

Rienk,
It would be nice to see a parts list of what you ordered, if you are willing to share.

And actually, it would be great if others that have built a unit would share their information as well.

Filippo


1 6213K74 1 Each Die Cast Zinc Step-cone V-belt Pulley, 3", 3-1/2" And 4" Od, 1-3/4" Wide, 5/8" Bore
2 6204K39 1 Each Cast Iron V-belt Pulley, 7.75" Od, 1-1/4" Bore
3 1497K403 1 Each Fully Keyed 1045 Steel Drive Shaft, 1-1/4" Od, 1/4" Keyway Width, 48" Length
4 3813T18 2 Each Self-lube Stamped Stl Base-mnt Brnz Bearing, For 1-1/4" Shaft Diameter
5 5906K525 3 Each Sae 841 Bronze Thrust Bearing, For 1-1/4" Shaft Diameter, 2" Od, 1/8" Thick
6 6213K78 1 Each Die Cast Zinc Step-cone V-belt Pulley, 3", 3-1/2", 4" And 4-1/2" Od, 2-5/16"w, 5/8" Bore
10 34915T42 12 Each Rope Cleat, Open Jam, Black Nylon, 1/4" Max Rope Diameter
15 6432K29 2 Each Zinc-plated Steel Set Screw Shaft Collar, 1-1/4" Bore, 2" Outside Diameter, 11/16" Width

I deleted the line items for the other items used for a different project (My improved LMI side bender).
I left in line item 10, which is what I'll be using on the new plate jointer that I designed (like LMI's).

Bear in mind, I have NOT built my buffer yet, so these parts might change (I am really tempted to use the 1" axles above).
But I really want my pillow blocks to be less than 12" apart, and I believe I'll need the extra diameter with the wheels cantilevered out so far. Plus, I intend to buy the much larger wheels from Grizzly, which also have the 1-1/4" hole.
And I STILL have to have the rod ends threaded... I would highly recommend getting an axle from the above web site instead (a lot cheaper) even if you go with 1-1/4".

I have a whole bunch of tools to design and build before I finish this thing, but I figured I'd have the parts on hand for when I want to change gears for a while.
I know none of you guys get frustrated or burned out in your processes, but being a humble human and not (yet) a luthier - I do.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:07 pm 
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AnthonyE wrote:
So what are you using for a motor? I assume that's the most expensive part. I've been trying to get my hands on some motors from the place I work but every time I come across one the motor it's 3 phase.


Remember that you don't need a big motor for a buffer. Most of them run at 1700rmp so it will get geared/pullyed down a bunch to get the 800-1200 surface feet per minute at the wheel. Therefore a 1/3-1/4HP will do just nicely. And Whadddyaknow! those are FREE from most heating and air conditioning places. They pull out old forced air heaters and dump them in their recycle pile and most of the places will let you pull the motor for free. While you are in there, grab the buffer block for the fan wheel, usually 1" or 1-1/4" so you save having to buy those as well. That is what I did for mine and it works quite well. If I really lean on it with a scrap stick to the 12" wheels I can almost slow it down a bit but with regular buffing it is super.

Alan (Ol' dumpster diver) D.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:55 pm 
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Todd Stock wrote:
Really would want the ends threaded for 1-1/4-7 and reverse...3-1/2" on each end should work. McM-Carr sells the 1-1/4" RH and LH thread nuts...just need the 8" flange sets...if anyone knows where to get those for under $60 a pair, please post.

I agree about having one end with reverse threading, though lock nuts would probably be fine for the torque that is getting applied.
I would recommend going -12 thread (instead of -7).
I still think the 1-1/4" hollow axle shafts are the way to go!

Todd, what do you mean by "flange sets"?


Last edited by Rienk on Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:00 pm 
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dunwell wrote:
Remember that you don't need a big motor for a buffer. Most of them run at 1700rmp so it will get geared/pullyed down a bunch to get the 800-1200 surface feet per minute at the wheel. Therefore a 1/3-1/4HP will do just nicely. And Whadddyaknow! those are FREE from most heating and air conditioning places. They pull out old forced air heaters and dump them in their recycle pile and most of the places will let you pull the motor for free. While you are in there, grab the buffer block for the fan wheel, usually 1" or 1-1/4" so you save having to buy those as well. That is what I did for mine and it works quite well. If I really lean on it with a scrap stick to the 12" wheels I can almost slow it down a bit but with regular buffing it is super.
Alan (Ol' dumpster diver) D.

That's a great idea!
In fact, don't they use a fairly large pulley as well? using a large sheave like that would let you buy a standard pulley for the motor, and you could easily get down to the rpm (FPM) that you need for whatever size buffing wheels you're going to use.

BTW, I would recommend using the same motor and pulley setup for having a motorized radius dish for sanding down tops and backs!
Pretty soon, we can all have mini Taylor or Martin shops!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Ah, forgot about the reverse threading issue. You'd be surprised how important that is. I thought it was possible to get axles like that? Oh well.

The wall unit is just a frame that pivots at the bottom. When stowed with no wheels, the whole thing is compact against wall. You have to figure out how to mount motor so it doesn't hit the wall. When you need it, release at top, it swings out with some kind if bar mechanism that keeps it rigid. 45 deg angle? I wish I had a picture, saw one here a while back. Whole thing could be built out of 2x4s I imagine.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Mike O'Melia wrote:
The wall unit is just a frame that pivots at the bottom. When stowed with no wheels, the whole thing is compact against wall. You have to figure out how to mount motor so it doesn't hit the wall. When you need it, release at top, it swings out with some kind if bar mechanism that keeps it rigid. 45 deg angle? I wish I had a picture, saw one here a while back. Whole thing could be built out of 2x4s I imagine.

I've seen a thread on a wooden one, but I am looking for metal framing.
No worries, because I'm using a double belt system, so I'll have to muddle through my own design anyway.

Still wondering what Todd means by 8" flange sets?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:28 pm 
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Filippo Morelli wrote:
Here are the flanges ...

Ahso!
I would think that 4" flanges would work fine - especially if you simply added a 8" sheet metal plate inside.

Filippo, is that your machine?
Do you have an issues with the bearings being so far apart, and thus the wheels being so close to the cabinet?
The main reason I'm going with the 1-1/4" shaft is so that I can keep the bearings close together, and keep the buffing wheels far away from anything hard...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Filippo Morelli wrote:
Not mine, but that shows the flanges. Todd and I have been talking about building a few of these ...

If you don't mind, I'd like to keep up with what you're doing - maybe we can help each other out on these?
If you know of a better way to get the 25-33% reduction than the double belt system I currently have, please let me know. Those McMaster parts weren't cheap, but I was comparing it to the StuMac system, so i bit the bullet.

I might waterjet out the larger flanges, if there are no other options for those.

The axle shaft is a good idea (especially the hollow ones) - thanks for the tip William!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:07 am 
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Filippo, where doth one obtain such amazing flangi?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:52 am 
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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the flange bearings you are referring to are called pillow blocks. There is a place in Mt. Vernon, IL. called Bearing Headquarters Co.
Or do a search for pillow blocks.

Hutch


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:10 am 
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ChuckH wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the flange bearings you are referring to are called pillow blocks.

Well, you asked.

The flange is the plate that squeezes the wheel stack together.
Here is a link to the 4" flanges, but Todd is looking for 8"

http://www.grizzly.com/outlet/Buffing-F ... 1-4-/H2800


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:37 am 
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Todd, are you looking to run 16" wheels with those big flanges?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:02 pm 
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I have a home made sanding drum with a 36" long, 1" dia. steel rod and there's probably 10" extra rod sticking out the side that I'll set up for a buffing wheel.

Instead of trying to locate flanges, I'm planning on using solid pulleys with a 1" bore - very, very common and easy to find at almost any dia. you'd like.

I'll grind one side of the pulley flush where it will meet the buffing wheels and then compress the buffing wheels between the two pulleys to hold them snug, but not too snug to allow for some movement if I lean on it a bit hard. I guess you could actually bolt the two pulleys together, through the buffing wheels, if you wanted to hold the wheels firm, creating a custom flange of sorts.

I'll use 10" buffing wheels to slow the FPM down a bit on my 1000 rpm sander and see how she flies.

Haven't built it yet but will cost no more than the cost of a couple of pulleys (actually sheaves) at $7 - $10 ea. at Grainger and the buffing wheels and buffing compound. It's around the corner so I'll post when completed.

EDIT: In theory using stock pulleys you wouldn't need to thread either end of the drive rod, just secure to the rod with the provided set screws.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Larry, the only thing I see as an issue is torque. The sanding motor probably has more than 1/3 to 1/2 hp, right? And you already reduced the speed to 1000 rpm? Torque is what can do you in. Either by burning (since you cannot stall it) or catching and flinging.

1000 rpm does not sound like much until you get up close to it

Mike


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