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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Koa
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Folks,
I'm chasing the illusive ring+ mode on this cedar top.

The mode has gone from 350hz down to 274 with the brace shaving I've done so far.

My target on this size guitar is about 254 which is where the last five or so have landed. This one is giving me fits.


I feel like I don't have much brace left to carve.

Because it wouldn't close on the edges I added a third finger to stiffen things up but that didnt help at all.

Please check out the photos and let me know what you think.

Thanks

Dave

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Koa
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I always assume that open on the sides means it is too stiff across the grain. I would remove the third fingers and replace the other 2 to point more forward. That, or change the x's angles a bit to stiffen along more than across. I wouldn't assume with the braces you have now it would close but as always I could be wrong.

On the other hand, I haven't closed a ring in a long time and don't feel like my guitars are lacking for it. I have strung up guitars with the ring+ looking very much like yours and been totally happy with them.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Dave,

I'm with Burton. Adding the third finger braces seems like it would have increased the lateral stiffness since they run predominantly laterally. I can't see from the photos, but did you get a node across the upper bout near the upper transverse brace?

One of my guesses (and there are several) is that the scallops in the x-braces below the x enhance bending across the grain, helping to keep the ring open. There's less stiffness across the low points of the scallops than at the x and above, which may be a factor. Also the top looks to be on the thick side. What is the top thickness? You might find you'll get more of a reduction in lateral stiffness than longitudinal with a thinner top.

If it were me, I'd do what Burton suggested with the finger braces and also change the lower x to have less spread, about like the main x which is already pretty tight, probably a good thing I'd also thin the top around the lower bout which would likely help bring the frequency down. All guesses, but that's what seems to work for me.

But then you could go ahead with what you've got and I'll bet you'll be fine.

Pat


P.S. Nice dial, by the way!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Koa
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Thanks for the replies guys.

The top is WRC and is .111" which is MUCH thinner than I've ever gone on that wood before.

The instrument is being built by a high school kid who wants to study guitar but can't afford a good one.

So he comes over and cleans and sweeps and SANDS. In return he gets to "build" his own guitar.

I've already shaved off the third finger and will consider redoing that lower X. But it rings just fine right now so we may just go with it.

Dave


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Sometimes you just can't close the ring.

Mark Blanchard has been testing unbraced tops for some time. You can get a 'ring+' on those too. What he's found is that if the mode won't close on the unbraced top, it's very hard to get t to close on the braced one. The bracing adds a lot of stiffness, of course, but altering the stiffness _ratio_ in a way that yields a good sounding top is hard.

What Mark does is thickness all of his tops heavy, cut them to the shape of his largest pattern, and test them. If the ring+ doesn't close, he cuts the top down to the next smaller shape, and tries again, until he either gets it to work, or has reached his smallest shape. This works, if you think about it, because smaller guitars are usually not much shorter, they're just narrower, so as you go down in size you're changing the aspect ratio of the top.

What he's looking at here is the effect of the stiffness ratio of the top wood. Wood that has high cross grain stiffness will give a closed ring+ on a wide box, like a Jumbo, but probably will not on something narrow like a 00 or 0. You _might_ be able to get the narrow top to close right by changing the X angle, but I doubt it. As Mark has said, he wishes he had back all of the time he spent trying to make tops work that didn't want to. It's easier and works better in the long run to find the top that 'wants' to work than to try to make one work that doesn't want to.

Mark does not test the actual Young's modulus of his tops along and across the grain, so far as I know, but relies on mode shape testing to match them up. I've been using both methods for a while now; trying to get some reading on the range of stiffness ratios that will work for a given shape. It's going to take a while to get enough data. This would be a nice afternoon's project on finite element modeling program: you could input a few shapes, and run the modes with uniform thickness plates of different stiffness ratios, and find the limits pretty quickly, I think.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Alan Carruth wrote:
... I've been using both methods for a while now; trying to get some reading on the range of stiffness ratios that will work for a given shape. It's going to take a while to get enough data. This would be a nice afternoon's project on finite element modeling program: you could input a few shapes, and run the modes with uniform thickness plates of different stiffness ratios, and find the limits pretty quickly, I think.

A place to start is by looking at wood where:

Llong/Lcross = (Elong/Ecross)^0.25

where Llong is the length in the long grain direction, Lcross the length in the cross grain direction, likewise for the Young's modulus, E. There will be a shape effect, but I suspect the sound hole isolates the upper bout, to an extent. The relationship does suggest higher aspect ratio guitars than we're currently used to, though!

The formula above is the condition for producing rings or crosses in rectangular plates, the difference being the relative phase of the waves. Details on p 4-27. I'm not sure whether it's of any particular benefit or not, but when I've randomly picked falcate braced tops out to test (when I've happened to have had my Chladni gear set up) the ring + seems to close anyway.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Koa
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Thanks Alan and Trevor.

I guess, I'll just forget the ring+ and build a guitar.

It will probably sound just fine and I'm ok with that.

I just like to be in control of the variables. And sometimes, we're just not in control.

It's tough to accept the idea that every time a man says he has a plan.... God laughs.
But this might just be one of those times. I only hope I didn't mess anything up.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:54 pm 
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There is considerable irony when I pop up with an opinion in the same thread with Al and Trevor.......oh well........

In the guitar model in my pointy head, I want very little stiffness around the perimeter of the lower bout. So I want the finger braces, tone bars, and even the ends of the X-braces to taper down to nothing short of the lining. So I wouldn't want an additional finger brace.

I'm curious, anyone ever added an additional finger brace or beefed up a finger brace and improved the tone of the guitar?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:18 am 
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Koa
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I agree with Darryl, I would remove the third finger brace, and work on scalloping the other two so as the peaks were slightly inside where I want the ring to be. And scallop to nothing short of the linings. Also,work on scalloping the ends of the main x more. I just used that theory on a top last week, and it did close the ring, just barely. YMMV, probably work just fine with that shape, but I would want the frequency at least down in the low 250's.

Chuck

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:29 pm 
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I have never seen this before. I would like to learn more about this so I tried searching for ring+ and the word ring pops up in many threads. Is there a better search term I can use to learn more about this? anybody know of a good thread explaining what I am looking at here?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:01 am 
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NightOwl wrote:
I have never seen this before. I would like to learn more about this so I tried searching for ring+ and the word ring pops up in many threads. Is there a better search term I can use to learn more about this? anybody know of a good thread explaining what I am looking at here?


They are talking about frequency testing on the braced soundboard.
In my newbie-ness, I would say that the spectrum of sound testing during a build ranges from the most subjective (tap tuning) to modestly techie (deflection testing) to highly scientific and technical (Chladni testing). If you search for the word Chladni, you should get lots of threads. Burton did a bit about his setup during his docu-build a while back. Al Carruth always does a ton of testing and knows more physics on this topic than I can wrap my head around. Trevor Gore literally wrote "The Book" which includes lots of technical and scientific information about this subject. (All three of these guys have responded on this particular thread, so you'll be able to see their forum names and search for their threads).
Good luck! There's a lot of art and craft in this science.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:09 am 
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What a great explanation. Thanks Beth


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:38 pm 
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Trevor Gore wrote:
"A place to start is by looking at wood where:

Llong/Lcross = (Elong/Ecross)^0.25

where Llong is the length in the long grain direction, Lcross the length in the cross grain direction, likewise for the Young's modulus, E. There will be a shape effect, but I suspect the sound hole isolates the upper bout, to an extent. The relationship does suggest higher aspect ratio guitars than we're currently used to, though!

The formula above is the condition for producing rings or crosses in rectangular plates, the difference being the relative phase of the waves."

We need to keep something straight here: the 'ring+' or 'ring-and-a-half' mode is not the same thing as the 'ring' mode. In fact, you almost never get a 'closed' ring mode on a flat top guitar top. I'll do the best I can to explain this using ASCII text, but it's tricky. I wrote a a series of articles with lots of diagrams about this for 'American Lutherie' back in '91-'92 (yipes!), and they're available in re-print in the 'Big Red Book' series from the GAL.

Suppose you start with a couple of narrow bars of spruce, cut from a top half, with one bar running along the grain, an the other across. You could set these up as glockenspiel bars, supporting them about 1/5 of the way in from the ends and hitting them in the middle to excite their fundamental modes. Trevor talks a lot about this in his books, as it's a good way to find out what the Young's moduli along and across the grain of the wood are. Let's suppose your two bars end up having the same frequency: how would a plate with the length and width of those bars vibrate?

One logical prediction would be that you'd see the same sort of vibration you do in a narrow bar, with a pair of straight lines running across or along the plate, at the same pitch. Since the plate would not be able to make up it's mind which thing to do, you'd end up with four dots of glitter, if you were looking for Chladni modes, at spots 1/5 of the way in from the edges and ends. I knew one very seasoned researcher who believed that, and had a lot discussion about it when my articles came out, but that researcher was wrong. The reason lies in how plates or bars bend, and a little-cited property of materials called the 'Poisson's ratio'. Sounds fishy, I know.. (couldn't resist)

When you bend a bar or plate, most of the force that's resisting what you're doing, and trying to straighten it out, comes from tension and compression of the faces of the thing. If you support it at the ends, and place a wright in the center, then the top face is in compression and the bottom face in tension. The forces drop of pretty quickly as you go in toward the middle of the thickness of the object, and there can be shearing forces, particularly out near the ends in the center of the thickness, but we won't worry about that. Since most of the restoring force comes from tension and compression, and that's what Young's modulus is about, we can use characteristics of bent bars and plates to calculate the Young's modulus. But there's also something else going on. (My thanks to the late Oliver Rogers for the following explanation)

Suppose you take a square sheet of thin rubber and glue a wood stick across each of the opposite sides. Hold the two sticks parallel, and pull them apart. The sheet will get narrower in the middle. This makes sense: the rubber started out with a certain surface area, and it tries to retain that area; if you make it longer, it has to get narrower. If I understood Ollie correctly, the percentage of narrowing over the percentage of elongation is the 'Poisson's ratio'. If that's not exactly right, it's close.

So, look at that loaded bar as a stack of thin sheets. When you put the weight on top, and bend the thing, the bottom layer gets a little longer, so it tries to get a bit narrower. The top layer, in compression, tries to get wider. Since the layers are actually glued together the effect is that, as the center of the bar goes down, the edges in the middle go down a little bit more, and the bar becomes very slightly curved in the cross wise direction. You can see this easily in a 'bar' made out of something like foam rubber. Of course, for a narrow bar the effect is not great, but in a wider plate it can amount to something. Let's go back to our plate where the aspect ratio was set up to give the same frequency in both directions (remember?) so see what happens.

We left Pauline tied to... oh, yeah; sorry. The plate was resting on four blocks of foam about 1/5 of the way in from each edge and end. Suppose you start bending it downward at the ends. The top surface stretches, and the bottom surface compresses along the length, and the Poisson's ratio causes the center of each edge to bend upward. If you are driving the plate with a signal that's somewhere near what you'd expect a bar of that length or width to resonate at, and trow on some glitter or sawdust, the particles will gather along non-moving lines and form an X from corner to corner. This is the equivalent of having the lengthwise bar mode with the center moving 'up', and the crosswise bar mode with the center moving 'down', so we can cal l that 'out of phase'. You could, if you wanted, push both the ends and the edges down in their middles, and get a resonance going that way too. In that case you'll see a 'ring', with the middle of the plate going up as the corners go down. We could call that 'in phase'.

The thing to notice here is that the 'X' mode motion _relieves_ the stress that the Poisson's ratio puts on the plate, but to get an 'O' mode, you have to fight the Poisson's ratio, as well as the stiffness of the plate. It turns out that if you do this sort of thing with something like expanded Styrene bead board, which has the same properties in all directions, and compare a square board with a narrow bar that's as long as one side of the square, the frequencies of the 'bar' mode and the 'plate' modes will be different. If the bending mode of the bar is, say, 100 Hz, the 'X' mode of the plate might be at 97 Hz, and the 'O' mode at 103 Hz. Tee frequency difference is a measure of the Poisson's ratio of the material. (just to confuse things, wood can have six different Poisson's ratios: more information than you needed...) It's always fun to try this with different sorts of woods: mahogany has very low Poisson's ratio, and the modes end up practically on top of each other.

'Bar' and 'plate' are sort of loose definitions, but this gives you some way to define them: a 'bar' becomes a 'plate' when the lengthwise and crosswise bending mode frequencies get close enough for the Poisson's ratio to start showing up. You can tell when that happens because the node lines are no longer straight: there's some crosswise bending going on when you're trying to look at the lengthwise mode, and vice versa. When that happens, you're not looking at 'pure' Young's modulus any more, but at some mix of things, with the Poisson's ratio thrown in. In fact, one of the best ways to sort them out is precisely to 'tune' the plate's aspect ratio to give 'closed' 'O' and 'X' modes. The 'pure' bending frequencies in both directions will be simply the average of the 'X' and 'O' frequencies.

There are two problems with that:
1) you might have to trim that top half down to the point where you can't use it for a guitar any more, and
2) it can be hard to tell when you've hit the exact right aspect ratio. Are the ends of the X really in the corners, or a few millimeters out one way or the other? What if they hit on one side and not the other? You get the picture.

This is why I like to actually look at the Chladni patterns when I do this sort of testing, rather than simply holding the plate up to a mic and tapping. I don't always see straight lines, and can't always trim the plates until I do, but at least I know that the Young's modulus values I'm getting are approximations.

Now that covers the 'X' and 'O' modes. Notice that they are counterparts to each other: when you see one, you will see the other. On flat top and classical guitar plates you don't get 'closed' modes. The lengthwise bending mode usually is one of the lower pitched ones, and consists of a backwards parenthesis across the plate. [ ) ( ] The 'O' mode is not 'closed', in part because the upper transverse brace is too stiff to allow it to. It's generally either the mode below the 'ring+' or the one just below that (guitar tops are not standardized the way violins are, so they show odd modes from time to time). As near as I can tell, if you compare a guitar top with that square of foam plastic, the nearest thing on the foam to a 'ring+' weil be what you might call a 'hash' or 'tic-tac-toe' mode, with two lines across the plate, and two up and down. A trapeziod of the same sort of foam will show a ring in the middle with 'scoops' at the corners. On a guitar top the upper scoops are turned into a line across the upper bout by the stiff upper transverse bar. Usually the lower scoops are not there, but I have seen them on some Classical guitar tops, as backwards parenthesis on either side of the O in the lower bout: )O(

What a long post....


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