Official Luthiers Forum!

It doesn't seem like you guys are taking into account that the strings aren't parrallel with the fretboard. With optimal set-up, there is still an upward gradient, and that allows for clearence at the second fret. It's just a matter of how much you can lower the first fret, and if you're willing to sacrafice a little less ability to lower the saddle to lower action.

I did make a mistake in posting measurements yesterday, this guitar actually has 5/64 - 7/64ths clearence at the 12th instead of 4/64 - 6/64ths. But, the relief is definitely .004, and when I fret behind the first on the high E, there is still .007 clearence above the second fret and no buzzing. I still have enough clearence to lower the saddle enough to get the 4/64 - 6/64ths action at the 12th.

I'm also considering the fact that it's a conically radiused fretboard, and it's possible that I may be off on my saddle radius, which would cause the strings to gradually lose symmetry with the fretboard as they move higher.

You are REALLY starting to sound like a troll.
Most of us know what what we are talking about, and you seem to be unable to grasp what we have conveyed to you.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

lol. how's that? you have people stating that geometry makes what i'm saying impossible, when it clearly is possible. it doesn't mean it's a better way to do things, but that's how innovations happen, people question things and try something different. saying that one way is better when you haven't tried both ways? why would i listen to a person with that logic? i'm not going to blindly follow someone just because they say "i've been doimg this a long time and i know what i'm doing". that means nothing. an acceptable answer would have been "you can do it that way, but there is a better way", and some did seem to infer that, but others stated it just isn't possible. if you really think about it, that way has some advantages, but probably a couple more disadvantages, but for certain playing styles it might be beneficial.

if the truss rod ends at the first fret, that portion of the neck and fretboard is pulled up slightly more under string tension than with a rod accesed at the headplate. this also changes things in relation to fret leveling with no tention on the neck, i'm not sure if anyone brought that up, but it's another aspect as well.

No, you haven't given accurate measurements for us to go by. They keep changing.

With a straight neck, which you seem to have, you would NECESSARILY raise the strings higher at the bridge because of the vibration envelope of the string.

A little relief would allow you to LOWER the action.

5/64 to 7/64 is actually what I was talking about earlier when I mentioned super high blues slammers.

Since only about 1% of my customers actually like that, and most are bringing them to me for setup at that height complaining about the action, then no, I'm not willing to sacrifice a little less ability to lower the saddle to lower the action.

Incidentally, your last post really demonstrates the folly of what you are doing, and also the fact that you don't really have a clue about guitar setups and are just making wild guesses in the dark.

It also is beginning to seem that you are unable to grasp the concepts being presented to you.

So, good luck! I hope you eventually figure it out.

All the best!

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

It seems that you are totally missing the points given to you . If you stopped a buzz on the first fret by filing it down you didn't stop the buzz anywhere but on the first fret as your nut slot may have been too low.
Yes we do know the strings are not parallel to the fret plane . NOTE FRET PLANE . That is the key. I don't like less than .004 relief and .008 is about as high as I would want to go.
How many fret jobs have you done ? It seems like you are still learning so expect to change your point of view in the near future. Good luck .

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

well, sorry. i suppose i get no credit for being honest about giving wrong mearurements, and trying to correct that.

With a straight neck, which you seem to have, you would NECESSARILY raise the strings higher at the bridge because of the vibration envelope of the string.
" - and i have no problem admitting i'm not exactly sure what you mean here.

No clue? My guitars have been complimented by professional touring musicians including one who is grammy nominated, as well as other outstanding and accomplished players in their own right. Maybe they're playing a joke on me.. That doesn't mean that I may be wrong in this instance and have much to learn, but I think "no clue" is a bit off.

I have also admitted more than once and made it pretty clear that I might be completley wrong but just want to discuss it. challenging ideas is how thought is stimulated and new things are discovered. It seems to me that some of you have a bit of an ego problem.

What have I stated that is completely ridiculous? I don't doubt that I may have done that, but I'm not sure what you're referring to. If you go back and read all the posts, several people have made statements that are wrong.

I think the fact that I'm the one admitting that I have been wrong, and may be wrong about more things says a lot about who has a genuine interest in learning something and is willing to live with a bit of humility. Being unwilling to let someone you feel inferior engage you in debate is a sign of narcissism by the way.

I've done about 12 fret jobs. The buzz was only at the first fret. I fixed the buzz, and the guitar sounds and plays great IMHO, and that's why I keep asking questions and debating. I don't doubt that you guys are intelligent, and great luthiers, but I don't feel that means I can't question things. And, I honestly feel like you guys are missing some of my points too. But, I'll also say that I really appriciate your post, you've given me a lot of uselfull and good info in that past, as well as on this thread. Thanks.

I don't think anyone minds questions but when you get consensus from several professional builders/repair folks and you keep questioning as if you don't understand what they're saying, it's on you.

And you follow it up with, "It doesn't seem like you guys are taking into account that the strings aren't parrallel with the fretboard.". You're suggesting that people who have decades of professional experience don't understand basic guitar geometry but what is evident to us is that you don't understand it.

My first suggestion is that you take a short straight edge and check whether your first fret is actually lower than the rest (with the strings up to tension). My second suggestion is that you read whatever you can (or take a class) and go back and learn the basics of guitar set-up. That is an honest suggestion and not an attack.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

Yes, that fret is lower. and the whole point is that you guys are wrong. I've already said that the conventional and proven method is probably better, and I'm only saying probably from the point of view of "Who knows, anything is possible". But, to say that the first fret cannot be any lower than the second without causing fret buzz is just wrong. This would only be true if the strings and frets were parallel or CLOSER to parallel than the typical set-up. Then it becomes a question of how much lower can it be. Well, NOT MUCH, and it doesn't take much filing to get rid of a very slight buzz that's only there when the string is plucked really hard. No one would even know the frets lower if I didn't tell them on another guitar I just did it on that does have 4/64 - 6/64th action at the 12th. That's what's basiclly turned this into a troll thread is that you guys are just wrong, and I confirmed it last night with a luthier who's also an engineer. He said what I said in a previous post. "You can do it that way, but it's not the best way, and I wouldn't do it." I raised a couple of points and he said. "Well, that's interesting, and I'll think about it, but I don't see myself adopting your method" It's not my method though. It's simply an experiment done out of curiosity. I still think it could offer certain benefits for certain playing styles though, but how could anyone know without experimenting? Most of what you guys are saying is probably right on, but a few statements are just flat out wrong. And why do you assume that I know the history of everyone posting on here? Especially when I know not everything they're writing is correct.

You are asking questions than insult those that give an answer. I think you are trying to teach yourself something and while you may be trying, you nomenclature may be incorrect . Here is fret board 101
First true the fret board.
I now true the board on the guitar so that I can make the fret board dead true. I also use a fret tang that will compress into the slot. If the slot is .023 I will use a tang width of .0205 and the barbs will set . I also will use glue with the frets , more as a filler than an adhesive.
So now that I know my fret board is true I will break the slot edges with a triangular file and set the frets. Once they are seated and the glue is dried I will now readjust the board for dead flat . At this point I will mark the top of the frets with a sharpie pen and then I have a special tool to true the top of the frets. I will go up and down the neck concentrating on the line of the strings. Once I see that all the ink is off I will now remark the frets and crown them in. Once they are all in line and in plane to the string line I will polish them using a cork and some micro mesh or 800 to 2500 sand paper. I will dress and polish the fret ends and cut the nut slot. I do the nut slot so the bottom of the nut slot is about .007 off the top of the fret plane. This I can finish on the set up later.
Note that a steel string does not bent like thread so it needs an arc on the bottom of the slot from the head stock to the front of the nut. This way the strings lays tight to the nut and the string won't be free for a back buzz. Once the guitar is strung up I usually allow a few days to let the guitar settle in , then adjust the relief. I start by adjusting to get the relief to .004 then finish setting up the nut. At this point I can check each and every fret for buzzing. A dead flat neck , while in theory seems like a good idea , check out what a moving string looks like. It is far from a gentle and even sine wave.

you have done a few and some of us have done hundreds , I do this for a living I am saying at this point you are more lucky than good. You apparently have no understanding of the fret plane and how it works in relation to the string. If you lower the 1st fret and you don't buzz on the 2nd , that is telling me that the fret job was done improperly. If the frets are in proper position , when you lower 1 the next one in line will buzz because to took the fret out of the plane of the frets.
We are not wrong , you have more to learn. Listen , ask questions and listen to the answers. I suspect you may have missed a few steps on the fret jobs you are doing. The key is to get the frets in plane to the neck . Having too low and action can kill your headroom. Match the set up to the playing style not all set ups work for every player.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

It's good that you want to learn, also that you're willing to admit you're wrong in theory, even if not in actual practice.
But simply because I'm not willing to discard 15+ years and thousands of guitars' worth of experience because you have a pet theory that seems to work with extremely high action does not mean I'm egotistical, or narcisistic. Frankly, when I had only done 12 fret jobs, I considered myself to be still learning, and NEVER argued with professionals the way you are. Actually, it's how I learned. I understand that you're feeling a little insecure and maybe have the need to prove yourself, but you have a ways to go before you can assert that. I'm not trying to make you feel small, but you ARE inexperienced. Relax, we're all actually pretty friendly.

I understand that people are complimenting you, but they may simply be encouraging you, or know you personally and understand the fragility of your ego and need to prove yourself and are responding accordingly. People used to do the same thing to me early on when I'd show them the guitars I'd made that I'm now embarassed to admit I'd touched.



Actually I said the same thing. It's possible, but not optimal, and I don't see myself adopting that method.

You got your successful result by having higher than average action.

Well, I can get that same higher action WITHOUT filing the first fret lower.

AND, I can set the guitar up LOWER if I wish, with no deleterious effects.

So it's simply unnecessary.

So how are we wrong? We would be wrong if what you are doing is in fact better and more desireable to do and we are simply unwilling to admit it, but I like my guitars to be able to accomodate a range of setups, VS one particular setup, so I don't believe that's the case.

Since you are in fact experimenting, try cutting your saddle down to slightly less than 3/64ths on the treble, and 4/64ths on the bass, and see how it works. Then get back to us.

Realistically, it's only in your best interest to listen to us, we gain nothing by it at all, and you stand to lose the ability to think critically about setup and therefore be able to satisfy a wider range of customers in the long run.

Think about it, not ONE luthier, including the engineer, has agreed with you or said you're right.

So, do you REALLY think you're the ONLY person in the history of luthiery to have thought of that procedure, that only reasonably works with extremely high action? And, do you think you can satisfy most players with that technique, or only a few?

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

Sounds like you are on to something String. You better send this tip in to Stew-Mac Trade Secrets so the whole world might benefit from this knowledge. It just makes all kinds of since. What were those measurements again?


Sent from my walkie talkie using Tapatalk

_________________
"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

"You are asking questions than insult those that give an answer." - and there we have the initial problem. Who initiated the insults and condescension on this thread and on my other experiences on this forum.. That's where the real difference of opinion is. I've made plenty of threads and posts where I didn't argue at all (I've had two different screen names) and was completely repsectful and was still condesended upon and even called names, I often said nothing even when I knew I was correct. Have seen others post ridicuous things and said nothing and saw that they weren't insulted and condesended upon, yet for me to simply ask questions is heresy.. And for the record I never stated it was a better way of doing things, I only asked questions. This concludes my most recent social experiment. Good day.

Actually nothing I was typing was directed at you, I appriciated that you were being cordial at first and liked and appriciated your comments. thanks. sorry to troll:(

OK, geometry time. Lets say your frets are proper and all level and your action is 5/64" at the 12th. And when fretted at the first fret it just clears the second fret and any lowering of the bridge will cause a buzz. We will call this zero degrees, it is our baseline. Relief is not important here and is what ever it is and will not be adjusted. If you lower the first fret by .002" you now will need to increase the string angle by raising the bridge to clear the second fret, this increase in angle on a standard 25.4"scale will be .09 degrees. You will need to raise the action at the 12th by .020" to get back the same clearance you had before you lowered that one fret. Your action will now be 6.5/64" to get back to minimum no buzz.The more you lower that first fret the worse it becomes, .003" lower at the first makes it 1.28 degrees and puts action at the 12th at 7/64". That's a lot, most of my customers would complain about a change in action like that. This is simple trigonometry, there is no arguing with mathematics.

I should just keep quiet because somewhere in your area is a repairman that will wind up making money redoing your fretwork and I feel bad trying to lower his income. I get more than a few instruments in my own shop that have just had fretwork done by someone else and play worse than before and need someone to put them right....... Could some of them be yours?

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Thank you all for being willing to help us newbies. I have read this forum many years and have never felt that I could post anything to your education. However I do want to thank String sencerely for his persistence because it brought out a lot of nuances from the pros. Lets be willing to say we can disagree amicably. Again thank you pros for your willingness to help.

It's a common statement that "there are no stupid questions...."
I think this thread proves that to be a lie.
Though the first post was actually an assertion dressed up as a question.

Bryan, it doesn't help when dealing with somebody like this to get the nomenclature confused. It's "saddle" not "bridge" ...

yeah bryan, that didn't make since.. and you might provoke one of those people into coming out of their natural habitat...

DEFINITELY a troll.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

This is frustrating as I am sure you are younger than I am. I am not being disrespectful but you are apparently trying to make a point but your communication isn't getting across. I would be happy to speak to you , so PM me and I will give you my phone number . When it comes to the fretboard , this is what makes the guitar feel and intonate . From what I can collect from your original post your lowering the 1st fret to cure a buzz should have created another buzz unless the 1st fret was not where it belonged or was the problem fret.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

OR the action is sufficiently high to clear the second fret with a lowered first fret, which has been established and agreed to (I think?) as not optimal by more than one (or all, actually) respondents.

I think our friend actually understands that, but is wanting it to be correct in his situation.

Well, correct, incorrect, it doesn't matter at this point as he will likely have a problem if lowered. At THAT point, it will definitely be a problem, even if not considered one now, unless of course the fret has simply been made level with the second fret.

If that's the case, it really isn't a problem now, even, but it is being described as measurably lower.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

Exactly. The fret that was level with the other frets with the guitar unstrung becomes a high fret under tension. It happens all the time.
That is why we use short straightedges......with the guitar under tension. Bumping and rocking, bumping and rocking.

_________________
John

I know what I was saying isn't the best way to do a set-up. That wasn't the point. The point was to illicit a discussion and to prove a point to a luthier I know that this forum has too many a-holes on it. The reason I filed the fret like that is that it had a nic in it that was too deep to file out, and I didn't notice it until the fret was already in. I knew I was going to have to replace that fret anyway. But, I finished setting it up anyway because I was eager to hear it, and it was already leveled and dressed. I cut the nut slot a little too deep. The buzz was barely there, and only when I plucked the string really hard. So I decided to file it down until the buzz and the nic were gone. It worked, and although I still plan to fix the fret it got me thinking, I wonder if this could be a useful way to do things in certain situations? I decided it might be in certain situations. For instance if you're on tour as a tech or artist and need a quick fix before a show or the only thing you have to fix it is a file. And maybe it's a better set-up for folk musicians that only use a capo on 2, or people who pretty much play on the first 5 frets or so. I was talking to another luthier I know who reads this forum, but doesn't post because he agrees with me that there are too many people on here that get negative, and I said , I wonder what will happen if I post a thread on this?" He said, "a few people will try to be helpful, and a few more will try to make you look stupid." Pretty much what happened. This was basically a continuation of a discussion on the frustration of how people in the U.S. are getting scary and weird about those who want to discuss certain things, and there seems to be a societal shift in attitude going on where people feel the need to quell discussion if they don't agree, rather than having a civil debate. This happened to me on a MMA forum where I was trying to have a civil discussion about the NDAA. I ended up getting IP banned from that forum.

So, I do appriciate and want to thank the people who've sincerely tried to help me with info on this forum, but I've been put in a bad mood too many times by others, and this will be my last post. BTW, there are luthiers with just as much experience and expertise as anyone on this forum that see the "pro's" writing plenty of things that are wrong and just plain nonsense, and nobody calls them out. So some of you should go back and read your own posts and think a little before you decide to belittle a "newby".