Official Luthiers Forum!

I have an idea to use a circle of metallic leaf in a rosette and was wondering how to go about it. I was thinking of routing the channels for the rosette and inserting inner and outer purfling lines, inlaying the gold/metallic leaf using gilding paste perhaps and then sealing the gold leaf with resin flush to the soundboard. Has anyone tried such a thing before? I think I would need to use epoxy resin but have no idea what complications there may be.
Will the resin adhere to the metal leaf and wood and will there be shrinkage. Also I would assume the rosette would need levelled if I managed to get it to work and therfore how would I keep it transparent.
Any help suggestions would be greatly appreciated

Thanks
Derek

I can't tell you if the resin would shrink, or really anything useful, other than to speak about the clarity of the resin after you level it. You could polish it with fine grit sand paper once it is leveled and that would bring back the clarity to the surface. But I suspect that whatever finish you choose will take care of the cloudiness that results from level sanding it.
There has to be a resin made for such applications though. Something to fill that does not shrink. I bet you could find it in a craft store like Michael's or AC Moore.

_________________
http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

Epoxy used in clear coating small boats is clear, but unforgiving to ultraviolet rays, needs to be shielded from to prevent clouding. Will sand to level, and various topcoats will work to regain clairity, but the UV block is essential. Go to MAS epoxy and check their videos for more info.

Yeah, I've done almost exactly that same thing. I can put up a pic later tonight if you want to see how it looks - about 12 years later... What I did was simply sand it flush to the top, and then french polish over everything.

The main things I learned were: watch out for bubbles, and make sure whatever you're embedding doesn't float up to the surface. The first can be addressed by warming the epoxy with a hairdryer, the second by careful attention.

If I were to do this again, I think I'd use polyester resin for its superior clarity. Somewhere on the web there's a pictorial of a guy restoring an old Rickenbacker. The fretboard inlays are a base of MOP flakes embedded in polyester resin. It looks awesome.

This reminds me of a thread a while back on making interesting designs in epoxy pick guards.

I made a rosette with broken abalone pieces set into the inside of the rosette.
The pieces were then flooded with CA and allowed to cure, then flooded again several times until the CA was slightly proud of the soundboard.
I then levelled the CA and finished the top as normal.

Perhaps you could use this technique with your gold leaf.


Bob

_________________
http://www.bobmatthewsguitars.co.uk

Yo Derek,

Gold leaf eh...Ok

First go read on line how to do gold gilding. Then read it again to get the idea and finally a few days later read it one more time ... just to get the gist of the drift. It is not a very forgiving process. There are also a few videos on you tube worth watching.

You will find that in order to have a glass look to the gold, the under surface or ground that you are laying it down on must be perfectly smooth cuz even the tiniest imperfection will appear in the gold...the proper ground is called bowl which is basically fine ground clay and hide glue and comes in black and iron oxide red. To pull this off in a routed channel in my opinion would be extremely difficult. The leaf is held down with gold leaf sizing which is a varnish that will first dry tacky to the tap of your knuckle. It comes in various drying speeds ~ fast, medium and slow or from one hour up to half a day. Faster is better cuz even the minutest dust particles will show through the leaf. Do not use the acrylic or water based sizing...it sucks. Use the vanish meant for gold leaf. Use an Ox hair brush for laying down the varnish. Assuming that you are successful in brushing the varnish in the channel with out getting any on the sides and then inlaying down the leaf on a dead smooth ground, the leaf should be burnished with a agate stone or smooth glass. Next the problem becomes sealing it with a layer of something clear. I have had great success using a water born polyurethane and then finishing the instrument with the same stuff which will then prevent the edges from separating from the purfling because of shrinkage. Furthermore, real gold is not cheap. Since you wish to have the deep imbedded look I suggest "duch metal" or fake gold leaf which is brass . It is a little thicketr and easier to handle but not by much. It must be sealed with the poly or with lacquer to prevent tarnishing of the metal. It is not advised to burnish dutch metal. It is also cheap. Do not use the crap from art stores.. Purchase your leaf from a reputable gilders supply houses...on line...run google or try these people

http://www.goldleafsupplies.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_copy_of_Imitation_Gold.html...

You will also need a guilders tip or brush which is very fine pure squirrel hair to lift the leaf and move the leaf from the book to the cutting pad and then from there to the area where it is to be laid down. There is a special knife for cutting the leaf and a pad of gilders leather to cut it on. You will have to learn how to put a static charge on the brush to pick up the leaf. NO MOVING AIR! Even your breath will blow the leaf off of the guilders tip or brush, it is that delicate.

Ok that is a quick "how to" but is not the way I would go.

I would get a piece of 1/16th inch or slightly thinner black or oxide red acrylic sheet, sand with 600 grit or finer water paper to simulate the bowl, varnish and then lay down the leaf. I would then pour or spray lacquer to a suitable thickness. After curing for 2 or three weeks, I would then cut out the rosette with a spiral down bit just like you would any traditional wooden rosette and inlay it into the top and finish the instrument with lacquer.

By the way, I have seen acrylic sheet material that comes with a leaf finish that would be pretty hard to tell from real leaf once inlaid into the instrument.

I have often laid down leaf into channels for rosettes, Ya it comes out looking rough, however I then start pouring in clear poly and drop filling in various clear colours of poly , browns, reds oranges, yellows and stirring / swirling them into the clear with a needle or pin to get that turtle shell effect. The light enters the clear colours and reflects off the leaf and is quite effective. Some time I have used coloured mica particles instead ... also quite a nice effect.


Here is an old pic of 4 quick and dirty experimental tops and was the first time I ever used this process,only here I used gold mica powders before I attempted it with leaf.
CITIES has its effect on how we now do inlay work so I came up with gold mica powder in acrylic brushed into the rabbits. Then successive fillings of coloured acrylics are build up, allowed to cure hard and finally water sanded down smooth. Once the finish is on, it looks like turtle shell.


I have since started to inlay a double ring of violin purfling around first to help bring out the turtle shell effect. Here you are looking through the bass sound hole, through the oval hole of the guitar, through the uke sound hole to see the mando sound hole on the bottom of the pile




Hope this helps and maybe gives you some ideas.


blessings
Padma

_________________
.

Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

'Nuff said

the: Where you been hiding..............? Nice to see you back on board.
Tom

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Here's an old Gold Sparkle Gibson L-2. Looks like glitter in the channel with some kind of clear coating over it. For the 30's they are remarkably clear but I don't know what they used. Whatever you do I would keep the channel shallow. It will look deeper than it is.

_________________
Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

Thank you all for the replies, much appreciated. I will have a go this week and post some pictures hopefully......