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 Post subject: cnc question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Anybody familiar enough with CNC specs to tell me if this will be able to cut fine MOP shapes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180834936046?ss ... 1423.l2649

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These users thanked the author theguitarwhisperer for the post: Michael Lloyd (Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:36 am)
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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Koa
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Disclaimer--I've never CNC'd MOP. As a CNC machine, 1204 screws would put full step size at about 0.001". They claim "Repeat accuracy 0.05mm" or about 0.002". If that includes backlash (or compensation) and it actually achieves that under various conditions, that's very good for the price. Bearing slop can show up intermittently depending on the strength of jerks of the gantry, etc. Repeatability will be best with very slow accelerations and very light cuts. I would ask them if the 0.05mm repeatability includes backlash, and if users are normally achieving that. You'll probably want a faster spindle than 8000 rpm, but that's easily replaced.

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:05 pm 
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I decided to dive into the cnc thing and bought one of the 6040 machines that got delivered today...there are known problems with the cables and electronics, get on cnc zone , but the machine seems very stout...the spindle is 800 kw which is about 1 hp and is the size of a small router...

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:06 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I went over to that CNC Zone forum.

Man, what am I getting myself into?!?!?

Really, all I want is to cut my little "S"'s out for my headstocks.

Now I'm scared LOL!

Thanx guys!

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:52 am 
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Koa
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Yes, cnczone can be pretty intimidating as most of those folks do DIY builds. CNC is a long learning curve, although a user needn't know nearly as much as a builder.

I haven't used a machine of this class but I think they have their place. If just starting out, I'd suggest a domestic machine as they'll have fewer headaches and much better support, both from the company and other users. In a small low-end machine, I favor the moving table designs (aka "fixed bridge", "fixed gantry"), as they are inherently more rigid and should have better performance and real repeatability. Their only disad is they take more space than a moving gantry machine, but these are all tiny machines anyway. Here are two such machines that get good reviews:
http://www.zentoolworks.com/index.php?cPath=44 -- complete kits
http://www.microcarve.com/mcMV1.html -- 'heavier duty' than ztw, but without electronics. He has refined this design for a while.

If only cutting out "S"s, period, I'd farm that out or do it manually. If more, learn CNC at whatever pace is comfy and avoid buying anything for some time.

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These users thanked the author David Malicky for the post: theguitarwhisperer (Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:58 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:13 am 
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Those types of machines can be a total crapshoot. The hardware looks decent but you can never be sure of the quality or alignment until you have it in hand and by then it's too late. My bigger concern would be the electronics. There's a cheap driver board that a lot of those types of machines use that are absolutely horrible and smoke really quickly.

David gives good advice. If all you want is an "S" - farm it out.

If you want to get your own machine, something like the microcarve would be a much better choice when matched up with some decent electronics. Don't forget that you'll need CAD and CAM software to go along with it. For something like inlay, Vcarve Pro would be a great choice and it's $500.

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:00 pm 
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I say farm it out to Andy.

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I've never tried Andy, but I've been farming my S's out and I'd like to not depend on others for them anymore. I haven't had good luck cutting pearl in the past but that doesn't mean I can't learn, but it's one more thing to do that takes time.
they look like this, an inlay within an inlay.
Attachment:
BassGuitarSOval-Virtual1.jpg


Quality control has been an issue for a few of them, and even the replacements weren't quite right, so I'd like to do them myself.

I have arthritis and my hands go numb when I do certain things.


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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:45 pm 
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theguitarwhisperer wrote:
I've never tried Andy, but I've been farming my S's out and I'd like to not depend on others for them anymore. I haven't had good luck cutting pearl in the past but that doesn't mean I can't learn, but it's one more thing to do that takes time.
they look like this, an inlay within an inlay.
Attachment:
BassGuitarSOval-Virtual1.jpg


Quality control has been an issue for a few of them, and even the replacements weren't quite right, so I'd like to do them myself.

I have arthritis and my hands go numb when I do certain things.


Do you have a picture of the actual inlay, with a ruler or a coin for scale? That'll help a lot in determining your needs machine-wise.

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:09 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Bob Garrish wrote:
Do you have a picture of the actual inlay, with a ruler or a coin for scale? That'll help a lot in determining your needs machine-wise.


Actually, I do!
This is a good one. It has nice clean lines and if they all looked like this it'd be great, but lately it seems to be about 50/50.

I'd like to do them myself.
Attachment:
DSC02273forum.JPG


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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Koa
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Wow, very nice indeed! It does look challenging to make, especially the long thin tail of the S. Others will know best, but I think you'll want a better machine than any of the above options. In the low $ segment, perhaps a Taig Micro Mill at about $1k, plus electronics and a very high rpm spindle. http://www.taigtools.com/mmill.html In any case, I’d listen closely to whatever Bob recommends.

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:11 am 
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That is a sweet looking inlay! It doesn't look like it would be too hard to machine though. You definitely want a tight and accurate machine with as high a spindle speed as you can get.

You should contact Microcarve and see if he thinks it will be able to get the job done. I suspect that with a decent quality air spindle it will do it. You'll probably want to budget around $2k for the entire project to be on the safe side. For something like that, I'd definitely recommend Vcarve pro for your CAM work. It's got some great features and toolpaths that work really well for inlay and shell.

Here's a shot of an inlay I did using Vcarve for a fretboard and it appears that this one has smaller features than what you're doing. Cut with a 1/64" bit. It's a scan of a signature that's been tweaked slightly to be wider than 1/64" at its thinest points.


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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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What kind of machine did you use, Andy?

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:11 pm 
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I have an Xzero Raptor. Would set you back around $6 to $8k depending on options and doesn't include software. I understand he's making a smaller one now for engraving that's a lot cheaper that would probably fit the bill if inlay is all you're looking at. Keep in mind that this machine is not turnkey and there's a lot of DIY involved in getting it running.

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:11 pm 
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Just a bit of caution.....

3 words...
Guitar making kit....

The less expensive units are best thought of as a Kit... A "Basis" for a good beginner's setup... It's like someone off the street buying a "Guitar Making Kit" and thinking they are getting a Real Martin D-28 if they buy the glue....

You may or may not have to do the following:
"Tram" the machine... Set all the alignments so it cuts square and plumb....
Climate control your workspace because temperature fluctuations will throw the machines off
Flatten and scrape the gibs and ways so it cuts flat
Replace some or all of the electronics - because many times, the cheap stuff isn't quite right
Rewire the unit
Replace some or all of the geartrain
Replace some or all of the electronic sensors used for positioning
Learn a version of CAD for use on your specific machine

Plan to buy additional supplies... probably $1k worth....

Are you already familiar with Autocad - as in... Do you already use some flavor of a CAD program to do CNC work already?

If you are already a CNC programmer AND a well versed tool and die man - my guess is that it will just be learning the differences between machines + a little work sorting out the unit....

If not - be prepared for a lot of frustration and probably a few classes in CNC programming at the local tech school to really get the hang of what's going on.....

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:20 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I'm liking the looks of this one that I found from the link that Malicky provided.
http://www.microproto.com/micromill2000.htm

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:48 pm 
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Good points from Andy and John. There's a strong inverse correlation between headaches and electronics quality. To that end, the Taig/MicroMill electronics don't look that great (chopper drives, few specs), particularly for the $1k extra. I'd suggest a Gecko G540 drive as it is high quality, easy to setup, with great support. A properly config'd 3 axis setup would run about $500 including motors, power supply, wires, etc. It's not turn-key, but not hard either.
EDIT: just noticed a Taig + G540 ~turn-key here: http://www.deepgroove1.com/cncmill.htm
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/taig_mill ... stion.html
But note the mixed reviews on that vendor.

In this class, I think the Taig is well suited for metal and inlay, but keep in mind it would be slow if also using for general wood parts. Do you know what machine your prior CNC source used? Since those came out 50/50, that could be helpful info, although the right process is needed, too (Andy, Bob).

Andy, nice inlay. I haven't used Vcarve -- what kind of features do you like in it and what is your process for those tiny pieces?

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Last edited by David Malicky on Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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They aren't cnc'd, they're done by hand.

Some employees have more skill than others I guess.

I think the Taig machines look very tightly toleranced gear and bearing-wise.

How would you convert a non-cnc one to cnc?

This is why I want something ready to go, LOL!

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I think I'm getting it a little. The Taig milling machine can be purchased CNC ready.

You then you have to buy a controller, which comes in 2,3, or 4 axis outputs, little motors for the controller to run which attach to the milling machine, and a software platform to tell the controller which motors to turn and how fast in order to create the desired cuts.

If you don't want to research yourself which controller and/or motors to buy, then you can either buy it from the Taig guy who does it for you, or you can buy the machine from someone else who has purchased a Taig machine and researched and assembled a kit for you composed of components you could have researched and bought yourself to attach to the Taig, with some instructions, hopefully good ones.

That being said, it seems I could also buy the chinese one, throw all the controllers and motors away, and replace them with good ones, if the rest of it is solid enough.

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Just curious for those who have experience in this, how these mini CNCs compare to the Carve Wright machine. I realize it is belt driven so the wood moves instead of the router. Recently there was an article about this machine in the guild journal.

Thanks
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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:21 pm 
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Yes, you're getting it!

The Microcarve and CR Taigs are built to accept NEMA 23 stepper motors. (NEMA 23 refers to a common size stepper motor for CNC... lots of companies make and sell them.) There is a coupler to connect the motor shaft to the leadscrew; I think Taig provides this, or they're easily sourced.

Optionally, microswitches are installed on each axis to "home" the machine and prevent over-travel. They aren't really necessary for making small parts.

The Gecko G540 has 4 stepper drivers inside it, as well as circuits to connect each driver to the computer's parallel port (the old style printer port). This is one reason it's easier than individual drivers. http://www.cncrouterparts.com/images/G540c.jpg

The easiest motor-cable-G540 connection is to use 3 of these motors: http://www.cncrouterparts.com/380-oz-in ... p-151.html (There are better performaning motors, but this one is decent) and 3 of these cables: http://www.cncrouterparts.com/cnc-motor-cable-p-45.html

A power supply provides the juice for the G540 to send to the stepper motors. These typically sit inside an enclosure/box, with an emergency stop button outside. Here's an example of bench wiring without a box: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachmen ... ring10.jpg
(Optionally, a relay to control the router also sits in the box, but an air spindle wouldn't use that.)
You can build your own or buy a box prewired:
http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.co ... -duplicate
http://www.camtronics-cnc.com/stepper-components.asp

A parallel cable connects the box to the computer's parallel port. Newer computers don't have parallel ports, so either use an old one or install a PCI parallel card. Not all parallel ports work well for CNC; this card does: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6815166007

By far the most common hobbiest CNC control software is Mach3, and it works fine for hobbiest use. The computer should be dedicated to only running Mach3; no antivirus, auto-updating software, internet, etc, as those could interfere with machine communication.

Gecko provides config instructions here: http://www.geckodrive.com/support/appli ... guide.html
And a file for Mach3 to read, so it knows how to talk to the G540: http://www.geckodrive.com/support/appli ... -file.html

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:22 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Lots of useful info here.
What's with the different size NEMA motors?

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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:03 am 
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Hey dudes. I'm new to the forum, but I use cnc for building/molds/ inlays etc. I bought a machine straight out of China for $5k. It's 1200/1200/160Z. Full vacuum etc. It has German bearings with an Italian 3kw spindle. It's totally fine. For this type of app, Vetric cut2d is super easy to use and spits out just about any Gcode type you'll ever need. It's so easy. What about just getting a little 600mm with the pendant controller that takes the USB stick? If you go to cnc zone and search Excitech routers, you'll find heaps of info. I cant stress how easy the pendant system is to work with. Worth a look.


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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:10 am 
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Attachment:
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1377439683.282723.jpg

This body is done totally in 2d. Cheap, fast and pretty easy. I'd say go Excitech or QuickCNC with Vectric software. I can give you a great contact. No commission at my end. Just trying to help a brother out.


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 Post subject: Re: cnc question
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:20 am 
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I totally forgot to mention that I could engrave a watch face with this machine. I think analysis paralysis can be the biggest hurdle. It was for me.


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