Official Luthiers Forum!

Jim , your unpretentious honesty, and straight talk abt being a loofier is a welcome change.We are all working to do better one day at a time , I bought a DC this aft , and the seller asked me how to pronounce luthier en francais. He got a chuckle out of that.

Ernie knows like twelve languages. How is loofier pronounced?


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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Chuck thanks for elevating my status. But it/s only 5 languages lol. In my case loafier would be more appropriate to how I approach my work . in French phonetically loo,thee, ay

Perhaps an interesting topic, but a tad esoteric.

If one has trouble identifying to themself what or whom they are, the real problem is way beyond the subject at hand.

I guess it depends on what floats your ego

Grant

when you have more zoot than you could possibly ever build guitars out of ....

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The difference between a carpenter and a loofier is the number of clamps...and dudes, me gotts a $ift load of clamps.


blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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You are a luthier when you have 3 years of orders, and are flat broke.

Ok...here goes...

There be lots of A1 first class guitar builders out there asking and getting $20,000 + per build.

But ... until they can convert a pile of lumber into a playable instrument, armed with only a few pics and knowing only (the scale length) they ain't no loofer.

How many of you self proclaimed loofers can build a 18 inch arch top or a 6 string cello or
lute or mandore or a gittern from only a picture with out drawings, plans or scantlings?

Hmmm?

What about a Oud or a bowlback Zookie?
Maybe a Shamisen, Guzhen or even a Gu-qin?
Do you even know what a Gu-qin is?

Can you calculate the fretting of say a 23.25 inch string length without using some app you found on line? What about the total tension from .08 to .050 on a 7 string 23"SL? with A at say 432hz? Right!

If you built one flat topper in that 6 week loofers course and then hung out your loofers shingle ...you may be an exceptional "guitar builder" or "mando maker"...but in me books, sorry, you ain't no loofer.

Loofers in my way of thinking should be able to build all sorts of things with strings on them. Sorry dudes, being a guitar builder don't make you no loofer in spite of being a member of dis here "Official" loofers form...whatever an "Official" is.

However I, me , Padma will concede the point that there are some loofers who specialize in repairs only, or in stringing up this that or the other, what ever this that or the other may be.

So with that said...ask ye self...are you a loofer, a Lutheran, or a glorified carpenter, with lots of clamps? Big BIG difference. Think about it.

Now there are musicians and then there are musicians and then there are musicians musicians...and like any art form some excel and others don't. So it is with looferin around...yes there are some extremely gifted wood butchers on this forum and out there knocking out some really nice builds. However I believe that you are ether born an artist or a musician or a luthier or your not. So ya, you are ether born a loofer or you are a really good craftsman ~ sawdust maker with a shingle thats says "Loofer". Simple eh.

Oh ya and me...me just a professional sawdust maker.

And thats just my 2 cents worth of sawdust.


Here in endith another one of me rants.
blessings
?adma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Names, titles, whatever.... does it really matter? An excellent instrument is an excelllent instrument no matter who made it - however, 'who' made it is often more important to some and as such they can comand higher prices - - and to be fair, that name, the 'who' is most often an earned reputation and thus justified, but not always, Sometimes its lucky breaks, but that reputation wont last if the quality is not consistent.

I know two pros pretty well - one with an international reputaion in classical building - in excess of 250 instruments and 25 years including teaching instrument making in London to degree level. The other has only been building professionally for 6 or 7 years, but already has a fine reputation and his instruments are stunning in design, quality and tone... neither call themselves luthiers, and neither care - because without any regulated standards its means nothing. It wont help you sell guitars or gain an better reputation, only the quality and consistency of your work will do that...or that lucky break.

Lets be really honest - and perhaps controvercial. TAMCO in Brighton in the UK has many single 'Luthier' instruments from some enviable reputations - and prices ranging from $2500-$20,000. All beautifully made. But the reality is that many of the lower priced are just as good and in some cases better in head to heads with their more illustrious counterparts... so does it really matter whether the label says 'Luthier' or 'hand crafted guitars' or 'Guitar maker'? ... the reality is that to the buyer, musician who is more interested in tone, no - to a collecter or someone who believes all the hype, maybe, but is not this term more a way that some like to differentiate themselves, rather than anything else?

Those who have spent years learning this craft deserve to be differentiated IF the quality and consisitency of their work justifies it - and in general their work will speak for its self , and do just that...no 'label' needed.

..o maybe you can call yourself a luthier, when someone will happily stump up $0000's as an up charge on stumpwood Brazilian? Or is that just clever marketing

PS.. I do think it is a shame that there is no longer a more formal process for this - I believe that in Germany they still have the time honoured approach to apprenticeships, journeymen and then after additional study a master qualification, but that maybe EU laws have impacted on this as well.

I guess the biggest problem with guitars though is that whilst the construction and attention to build quality and consistency are something you can learn and easily compare, the issue of tone is so subjective - especially when getting into the 'high end' professional level instrument. Build quality and materials are then a given and those 'professional 'luthiers' who comand a well earned reputation, did not get there without tone being fundemental to all they do.... but the big BUT, comes into its own when comparing high these high quality instruments - and that's the point I was trying to make, whether they were built by 'Luthiers', 'Master Luthiers' or 'guitar builders' - is less important than that subjective tone even when the wallet is not limiting your choice.

I would expect, although perhaps that is part of the problem, that anyone serious about spending $4000-$20,000 on a hand crafted instrument would do their homework - gain knowledge of different builders and select on reputation - the hardest thing to gain, and only possible through consistent quality - so in an ideal world the lack of formal 'luthier' would make no difference, as peer acknowledgment as well as customer endorsement and ultimately your own ear will drive decision and selection.

... the confusing thing is that its extremely difficult to assess 'value' when quality and attributes between instruments can be identical, yet price appears to be solely on the name?

I always thought of a luthier as someone who pretends to make money from making guitars. The true masters are the ones who do.

With the OP having a signature with a website where one can order guitars seems to be attempt enough in pretending to make money. Take the title.

I can't say a six week course makes you a luthier. The tools are already there for you, jigs have been prepared, etc. but a real luthiery course (like the one I am applying for in Lincoln College in the UK) are multi year. It involves not only building a guitar but making jigs and fixtures, and most of us can do that. Also in theory if you can make a guitar (as well as any relevant jigs that goes with it) you should be able to make anything with strings based only on a picture, and I have been doing that this year - making instruments without a printed plan but just based on pictures, tracings, and a picture of the brace pattern. I'm building them with my fingers crossed... no idea what it will do when strung up, especially when what you're building is a SJ and there are no plans.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Very good.... but I would suggest you add ' knowing how to get the sound you want out of it BEFORE you build it...'

I have gotten the exact sound I wanted out of all the instruments I have built... but with the caveat that the sound I wanted was only known after they were completed!

(I suspect in all true honesty, that my jest, may well be the truth for more than just me on here )

Looks like you are going to have to change your Signature if you get on the course!
Best of luck with your application Tai, I hope it all works out.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Looking at this from the perspective of a tradesman (not a luthier) I realize that after nearly twenty years of working everyday that my skills are still improving and evolving. Compare my time as a hobby guitar builder, five instruments taking 80-100 hours each, to my time as an apprentice. A five year apprenticeship working 2,000 hours a year, not counting class room instruction time. My five years building guitars doesn't even add up to a first year apprentice. The title of journeyman or master in a trade is earned by working everyday and developing skills. I would be curious to hear from folks who did serve under a luthier as an apprentice. How did it go? What did you start off doing, and how did that luthier work you into learning new skills?

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Kyle

Well... As many here have stated... There's no official professional organization to regulate the title as if you were an Electrician or Plumber... where you have to pass a test and hold a license in your hand....

so it's kinda a gray area....

My best indication is that you become one when your stuff is in demand... Just building a dozen guitars that sit in your living room isn't a good yardstick....

On the other hand - you know you are on the way when people are happy to give you "Market price" money for your stuff or your skills...

Thanks

When I went to woodworking school my instructor was an old school realist from winterpeg manitoba.He told us that in woodworking there are plenty of saw and hammer people who put up their shingle advertisement and away they went. That didn/t mean that they knew what they were doing it was and still is an unregulated business. People , do ,can, and will call themselves master luthier, guitarmaker , etc etc .because, we are in an unregulated business anyone from joe schmo music store, to whoever who has the $$$ can set themselves up, and no one can stop them.My 2 cents.

There isn't really a need to regulate woodworking, because anyone can build cabinets and frame houses. Doing a good job is another matter entirely.

As for luthiery a certain degree of competence is required to fix or build guitars. You need a high degree of precision, ability to work with various materials (not just wood), be able to spot problems even when they appear small at first glance, etc.. I suspect there are no regulation because it's not critical like plumbing or electrical where safety is involved. Worst thing that can happen with an improperly fixed guitar is an unprofessional job or a broken guitar. However a bad electrical or plumbing job can mean a house fire or a flood!

The fear with regulation is that it makes it hard for people to get in, however it may help with getting more income for those who are in fact competent. This is one reason why I feel I need some kind of a formal training in luthiery even if I can learn what the schools teach fairly quickly. The networking is also critical too.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Yes, anyone can build cabinets, but house framing needs to pass inspection, same as plumbing and electrical.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

In the 80's when a great number of luthiers were starting to form what came to known as the Association of Stringed Instruments Artisans, we talked about that very thing. Our concept was we would act sort of like the PGA, and have standardized skill tests to rank the members. We wanted to provide an entity for the retail merchant seeking repairmen who passed the tests - AND be involved in developing a curriculum for potential repairmen to learn.

The luthiers (guitar makers, violin makers, bow makers, etc.) would be similar to players on the Pro Tour, and then the rest ranked like amateurs. It never panned out, but in the early stages - it was seriously discussed among the steering committee members.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

That would be my house, Filippo! It ate light bulbs until I replaced all the light fixtures and corrected the many wiring mistakes. The worst was the wire connections in the main panel breaker not being tightened at all! Burned right through the side of the breaker.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

You haven't seen bad wiring until you come to Taiwan....

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

For starters in Taiwan nobody has any concept of safety ground or otherwise. I mean you cannot buy 3 conductor wires (necessary for 3 pronged circuitry) at all simply because nobody uses it. So it means the third prong is usually never connected and I've been shocked touching computer cases all the time... Also people double tap all the time, it is SOP for electricians here.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Totally works. I saw it on Gilligan's Island.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

There are some real advantages to the guild regulation of a craft, but there are disadvantages as well.

On the plus side, anybody who has passed the exam will be a competent worker, so you don't have to worry so much about whether the guy working on your expensive instrument really knows what he's doing. Restricting the number of people in the trade helps keep wages up.

On the minus side, that complete knowledge of 'standard practice' can sometimes stifle innovation. Restrictions on entry into the trade can slide easily into nepotism: the only people who pass master's exams may be the sons of masters, and most journeymen may never have the chance to advance, becoming wage labor.

C.F.Martin I moved to the US in 1833 over a dispute with the local violin maker's guild. Iirc, he had already received his master's rating as a guitar maker in Vienna, but the Marnuekirchen guild wouldn't recognize it, and he couldn't open a guitar shop in his home town until he became a master violin maker. Since he wasn't interested in fiddles, he left.

One of the US luthier's organizations tried to establish a rating system, but the effort foundered. Apparently they tried several different sets of standards, but the membership couldn't agree on them. If all you want to make are historical reproductions, do you need to know about carbon fiber or how to wire a pickup?