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I've seen some pretty deep florentine cutaways and I'm wondering how the upper transverse brace (UTB) should be placed on these. I did a florentine that came out pretty nice. I'm thinking of going deeper with the cutaway on the next one. On the one I did, I was able to place the UTB straight across (like on a non-cutaway), but if I go deeper I probably won't be able to make go straight across... Does anyone have any inside pictures (or drawings) of the UTB placement on your deep florentine cutaways?
Thanks,
Steve

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

Due to the location of the soundhole, my florentine would require me to angle my UTB -- if I did that it would be awfully close to the x-brace. For me, a much better option is to place the UTB normally but have it follow the curve of the florentine. In other words, normal UTB placement but when it gets near the cutaway, the brace just follows the the line of the cutaway. Obviously, you need to start with wider brace material to do this.

Thanks Simon (love your cat BTW),
Do you mean place the UTB straight across and simply key it into the kerf binding next to the hole left by the cutaway?

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

I leave it in its normal place, and simply let it into the side where ever it hits the cutaway (same way Larivee does) .. scalloped down of course ..... you could leave it full height, then add a side support instead of letting it thru the kerf/side as an option.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Hi Steve,
I am not exactly sure what you were asking but to clarify, my UTB brace doesn't inlet into the cutaway. For lack of a photo, here is a the basic shape of the brace when viewed from overhead. In other words, the brace simply goes around the "dip" of the florentine. I do this because I want the UTB to transverse the entire upper bout -- which it doesn't do if you inlet into the cutaway. I hope that makes sense.


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So Simon,

You remove width as the beam hits the cutaway, then carry on till the beam hits the side again?

Tony...

Do you deeply scallop yours at the cutaway side?

When I did my first cutaway, I used a Larrivee as a concept. The guitar started to collapse right away. (Fortunately it's mine). The beam is essentially more scallop than beam. I had to develope a new means of business. I'm not suggesting that there's something wrong with your cutaways, but I'd like to know how you handle the scallop under the tongue. Where do you start it, and do you do a round drum sander scallop, a flat tapered one like Martin?

Meddlingfool,
No, the brace is 0.5" wide across the entire length. In other words, the brace travels in a straight line and then "bends" around the cutaway and is then anchored into the kerfing. I don't actually bend a brace because it is too wide to bend with heat. You could bend and layup several thinner strips of spruce -- but I find it much easier to start with a wide piece of bracing stock and then cut out the shape.

Okay Simon,
So, I'm trying to understand... When you say the UTB "bends" around the cutaway, you mean that you cut a portion out of the UTB to accommodate the cutaway, so that the UTB stays horizontal and goes all the way to the out side of the cutaway... Is that right?

This is why a asked if there were any photos or drawings because it's hard to articulate...

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

Yes, sdsollod - that is what I do.

Todd, the brace I use isn't curved for the majority of it's length and thus acts very differently than a brace that is curved along its entire length. And I would absolutely agree with you - a curved UTB would not be a good idea since the design wouldn't resist rotation. Since this seems to be causing so much confusion, I added a picture of my bracing --- as you can see, this brace might actually be more resistant to twisting than a regular brace. If you imagine what happens as the brace would rotate towards the soundhole, the area beneath the cutaway would have to dip significantly lower than the other side of the brace. In some ways, this could cause splitting but the x-brace is right in that region and the florentine structure is very rigid right at that point and so, I personally do not view that area as being susceptible to much twisting (I also use double sides). -- so when designing bracing it is always important to look at the whole picture.

In the grand scheme, there are many designs that work well - this is just how I chose to address the supporting the upper bout with a cutaway.

That's an interesting approach Simon. It appears that you might be limited as to how deep your cutaway can go. Some of the florentines I've seen look like there is very little space for bracing. That is, that they go so low there wouldn't even be enough space to use your method. ...yet they still make it work. I'm getting ready to do another florentine and I'd like to go deeper (or lower depending on how you look at it...) on this one than I did on a previous one... When you get a chance could you show a picture of one of your finished guitars with a florentine cutaway so I can see how deep your design is?

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

FYI, the leading edge of the UTB brace is located 2.8" from the crest of the upper bout - so I wouldn't exactly call my cutaway design shallow - probably about average. But you are right, if your cutaway is very deep, this design may not work. Most people just run the UTB at the normal location and inlet the brace into the side of the cutaway.

You can see photos of my instrument here:
http://www.fayguitars.com/guitars/gallery.html

Yes my brace is scalloped down to about 50 thou, as I do on all the braces that I tuck in ... remeber that the cutaway side is very stiff .. it supports the side of the fingerboard .. the brace supports the rest of the top, it was .5 x.600, then scallopped. I also use a full 28 ft radius on my UTB, as with the rest of the top bracing .. I have yet to see one of my deep florentines collapse, the older ones are over ten years now ... my first guitar wasa deep florentine, its almost 14 years old, no collapse at all ... top is sitka about .108, bracing was all true larrivee sized, X is 8x16mm .. I use smaller than that now, still no issues.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I just slant mine.
Currently no pictures available as I'm on vacation

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Hi folks,

If you'll forgive an extremely amateur builder butting in on this discussion. The comment about the collapsing guitar made me nervous, as the last one I finished has a pretty deep Florentine.

In this case, the UTB terminates on the inner curve of the cutaway -- it's only been strung up for a month, so I have no definitive results, but so far the guitar is holding up.



--Paul

My comment was based off of one guitar. My - personal- concern is the scalloping at the end of the brace. The scallop ends up going beneath the FB. So the actual brace ends up being more scallop than brace. Which caused a problem for me which I did a total re engineering to get around. But Tony is right, the actual sides become the main support on the treble side, which is a very stiff structure, so I think you'll be just fine with yours.

Why scallop the brace?

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Sorry...

Yes, usually ends up as a curved scoop rather than a straight taper at the end....

Full height in the middle.

Great discussion... I guess the cutaway is quite strong since the curvature provides support. Looks like its okay to tuck the UTB into the side of the cutaway kerf binding and keep it horizontal. Maybe it would be good to not taper the end of the UTB too much to ensure adequate neck support... [BTW - nice rosette Paul]

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

Right, my bad.

Why taper the brace?

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

So the end, once notched into the side, is shallow enough to be covered by binding...

You steel string guys, out there on the edge ...

In the world I'm used to (classical and flamenco), where weight can be everything, UTB's sometimes get higher towards the side, not tapered down.

At any rate OP was concerned about the taper overlapping the fretboard edge. My suggestion (if it had been correctly worded originally) would be to eliminate the concern by eliminating the taper.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I put two pairs of CF buttress rods from the top of the neck block to the waist of my cutaways a la Rick Turner. One set runs parallel to the soundboard and the others are angled down to meet the waist near the back of the instrument. These all but negate the need for the UTB - I still put a small horizontal UTB in, although I'm not sure it's needed. Yes, on the cutaway side, they almost touch the sidewall of the instrument.

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Here's a good picture from Jim Olson's website showing what he does (I do the same thing).

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But I think the problem here is not the shortened brace above the UTB (the popsicle stick replacement) but the fact that the cutaway is so deep that it takes out the UTB, which is complete in the picture here.

I have to say that I really like the really deep florentine cutaways - I have a picture on my shop wall of one of Ervin Somogyi's guitars, which to me are the best looking cutaways. I'd like to give one a try - if I ever find the time to build a steel string again.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu