Official Luthiers Forum!

Maybe if you had some decent chisels, just saying.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

I guess my goal would be to get down to strings and tuners (Haans, I actually saw strings made out of gut on "How Its Made", so I know I don't want to go there). Aside from pegs in a peg head, I'll leave tuners to someone else. I do have a mini-lathe, so might try pegs when I have the need. Having said that, I still order readymade kerfing (it's just too tedious for me right now) and purfling (but based on recent thread, I'll be trying this next). I get my tonewood from some of our sponsors (don't see myself resawing any time soon, possibly never). If I go electric, there are plenty of parts I'll have to buy. I'm trying everything else for the enjoyment and challenge, and the excuse to buy more tools and make more jigs. Right now, if something gets too tediious or I don't feel I'm not ready for the challenge, I'll buy. However, I'm in the "to each his own" camp, and enjoying the ride and admiring what everyone else is doing on this forum.

On my electrics I make the bridges, for instance, because I'd rather design the bridge to the string height and spacing I prefer as a player than design the guitar around available hardware. I also like having the ability to control the string track throughout the guitar. Of course, somewhere out there is a store bought bridge that suits my tastes but finding it takes time and money. Another aspect of in-house part making is the ability to make subtle adjustments for the sake of other players and for the expanded capability of the builder. I would think these principles apply to acoustic builders as well.

Artistically, I desire to have a cohesive overall presentation. This motivates me to make knobs, pickup rings, and truss and electronic covers that all carry some sort of common design element. This also applies to wood selection which necessitates the ability to make fretboards which fit into a design motif.

In the long run, however, it's entirely up to a builder and the builder's market how far he or she wants to take the aesthetic aspects of the design past making a truly good playing and sounding guitar. I think the focus should be on creating functional instruments before focusing on the aesthetic details. Priorities.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Hesh, I really get a kick out of making the label for the inside of the guitar could I get all the rest of the guitar made to high quality by a professional luthier like yourself?

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

Ha! Haans, are you making tuning machines?

My goal is to be ABLE to make everything except frets and strings to a level equal to what I could purchase, even if I don't end up doing that for every guitar. Truss rods, pins, Carbon Fiber layups, etc... Even frets are possible, bar frets being the obvious choice, cut and thicknessed from nickel plate.

The tuners are the hard part (for me, at least), especially if I expect them to compete with other handmade open back machines. I've been slowly collecting the machines and scraping them into tolerance and the day when everything is running and I finish my first set will be a day long coming for me.

I'm not sure I could explain exactly why it is important to me to be able to do everything. It sure helps critique other parts that come in. Did anyone see the feature in American Lutherie on the European fellow making replica Stauffer guitars and lutes? His name escapes me, is it Martin De Witte? He was a big inspiration for me, his work is beautiful. If I remember correctly he made a rose engine from leftover parts to make the backplates. Makes me jealous!!

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I haven't seen the article but it is indeed Martin de Witte who made the replica Stauffer tuners. Making a Guitar is a lot of work. Making the Stauffer style tuners is a complete different skill set and requires serious dedication.
I thought I was going the extra mile by occasionally making my own Oil Varnish, friction Pegs and parchment roses. I don't think that compares to engineering tuners like that.

Yeah well.... I'm still slumming it with the Blue Spruce chisels every day patiently waiting for my very own genuine Link Van Cleave hand-crafted chisels complete with ebony end caps....

Do you think that I will see them prior to the next time you come out? I'm borrowing Dave's LVC chisels when he's not looking but this can't go on forever and besides they are getting dull too....

By the way folks if you want to talk about parts we make and what we purchase some Luthiers make many of their own tools with Link making his own world-class chisels. So you can see that it is a concern too when addressing this topic where does it end?

Haans who's stuff is absolutely stunning does it all sands strings. I greatly respect this and always will. But for others who may dip their toes in Lutherie with a first kit guitar that's OK too in my view. What ever floats your boat.

When learning (which, by the way never ends...) Lutherie there is so very much to learn just with the most important stuff if your approach is to take it one step at a time perhaps by using a CNCed board for the first couple and if your time is limited too these days we all have options that were not always there for those who came before us.

In short there is no right or wrong here in my view.

Probably not and here are a few reasons why:

1) I don't do commissions, never did and never will. To me commissions are an excellent opportunity to take the fun right out of Lutherie. Why? It depends on who you are and what you are comfortable with. For me Lutherie was intended to be something that I love doing, a stress reliever if you will. If I had to look at someone else's idea of design, colors, etc. for 150 - 200 hours I would go even more insane than I already am...

I'm much more comfortable building what I'm into at the time and addressing my current goals for building with the current instrument under construction. I've always had goals with each instrument and I also always wrote down my goals for each one in advance. The idea is and was to address weaknesses or to expand chops and knowledge over time. Each subsequent guitar that I have ever built was actually an exercise in both improvement and expanding my chops and experience. Or, in other words, a bit of a Six Sigma approach to Lutherie here....

2) How much money do you have..... Note no question mark because I would never be so rude as to actually ask this question (unless I knew you well and was busting your chops...).

If you have never heard the old joke: How to you make a million dollars with guitar building, start with two million you will understand where I am going with this.

When considering opportunity costs when one can make around $80 and hour doing repairs, efficiently.... and well, have you ever determined one's real costs in producing one guitar? I did and found out that I was making about $.99 an hour building again when factoring in all costs and being honest about what the actual costs of everything including my time is/was.

3) It's not the business that I am in, ghost building for others and again doing anything resembling a commission.

By the way there are ghost builders and no I won't name names but I can think of a few examples of them at present. Folks who actually build the instrument so another Luthier who may be more well known can put his/her name on it and command higher prices.

Which also leads me to bring up the subject of apprentices. When considering some of the biggest names in the biz who in many cases have apprentices and sometimes more than one how can any of us, not that we should even care...., know who's work is really who's? Is there something wrong with the practice of letting an apprentice do some of the work - not in my view. Just like with learning hospitals learning environments may have a bit of a healthy competition happening that might benefit all including the intended steward/owner of the instrument.

If I were to tell you that some builders may out source many things such as finishing, CNCed boards, bridges, inlay, etc., design elements, resawing, marketing and sales, and even doing the final assembly of their instruments some here may object. Would I, not for a moment. Again it's do what ever you like so long as there is no intent or active effort to deceive anyone.

If a builder determines that his/her client is best served by a more tenacious finish such as poly but the builder is not tooled-up to shoot the stuff in my view this actually represents a keen eye for value and less concern for personal ego in that the client is better served. Let's remember too that outsourcing is not free either.... far from it.... If a builder is willing to invest part of that hard-earned $.99 an hour for an outsourced finish they must see the value in it and so do I.

So again lots of ways to view this topic and again too what ever you want to do is exactly what you should be doing.

I know a LOT of Luthiers personally and many of you guys (meaning men and women) too. Never once have I heard that the specific, deal-breaking criteria put forth by a prospective client was that every single element of an instrument had to be solely produced by the personal hand of the Luthier. Instead what seems to be the big three in terms of their, prospective client's concerns is fit and finish, playability, and tone.

For those such as my friend Haans my respect for you and how you do what you do is off the charts. But I'm at times a bright guy.... not always... and as such I also resect that not only is it not my place to judge others and their approach to a hobby or trade I also understand that day jobs suck time and energy and perhaps even abbreviated approaches to Lutherie have their place too.

At the end of the day it seems to me, said in my best Columbo impersonation...., that there is room in the trade for all sorts of approaches and to some of us who are open to the possibilities we just may learn a thing or two from those with a different approach from ours as well.

I know a guy who makes his own strings but he's a total heretic: he buys the music wire and windings.

….off to go plant my next batch of tops….

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

This pretty much sums up the end result of trying to make anything entirely by yourself

Thanks for that Dennis - that sums it up nicely for me!

Andy your and my trees both.... When I planted about 30ish trees in my yard 5 years ago I tried not to let them know what I was thinking for their future. Between my plans for my trees and the neighbor's two large dogs, the deer, the resident skunk, lots of bunnies, etc. being a tree in my yard can be a pretty precarious endeavor.... Not sure if they would prefer my plans for them, being a guitar some day.... or being a fire hydrant for the neighbors dogs... but if it were me I would definitely prefer being a guitar...

Hmmm….Hesh saddle and nut blanks? ….creepy

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

The Sawdust .. I do buy the sawdust... Ohhhhhh and Kerfing , I get that from Filippo by the pound

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Uh, Ok, tuners.
Uh, oh yea, frets, binding, lacquer, varnish, bone, ebony, red spruce, white oak, flamed red maple, BRW, sapele, mahogany, African Blackwood, inlay, hide glue, cyano, epoxy, weldon 16, Baltic birch ply, CF tubes, bridge pins...

I'm in my first build, and someday I'd like to make everything myself, but for now I don't have the budget to buy most of the gear it takes to do so. Also, I agree with John and a few others that there are just some things that from a productivity stand pout I don't have an interest in making myself - specifically fretboards. As a first time builder I'm more interested in making a decent guitar the first time so that I don't get to the end of trying to do it all myself and find that I made a mistake that ruins both the instrument and my desire to build again.

Right now I'm building with wood that was already prepared from Allied Lutherie and RC Tonewoods for the top, back and sides. I've got two pieces of Sitka that I'll cut my own braces out of. I plan to order most of the other bits for this one. Maybe one day I'll be able to build it completely from scratch, but that day is a heck of a long way off.


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Justin sounds like you have a great plan in my view! The not-so-dirty secret here is that lots of builders who may be pretty well known now started with some serviced parts too. Even some of the top names in the biz employ CNCed parts made to their exacting specifications.

My friends tell me that I have a memory like a steel trap.... which is not always a good thing, trust me.... Anyway I remember back in 2005 being overwhelmed by all the new terms, operations, parts, woods, glues, methods, styles, etc. and at least for me it was beneficial to parse out your objectives and take it a step at a time.

At the risk of subjecting long term members to one of my lousy jokes again unlike many here I was not a woodworker. Prior to my first guitar the only thing that I had ever made were reservations....

Years ago also I think it was Mario who mentioned that he once cut out a small piece of wood and carried it around in his pocket to get a feel for the wood in time. So..... I did the same thing and carried a 1" X 1" X 1/2" piece of BRW in my pocket for two years.... I to this very day I still keep small pieces of wood on my desk(s) and often... handle them while on the phone, etc.

You mentioned not wanting to make any mistakes that would ruin your desire to build again. This told me a lot about you and also told me that you are likely going to be a great builder! Having the drive to accomplish your goals and the foresight to anticipate set-backs is a realistic approach. Most of all cherishing your very own interest in Lutherie says to me that you will likely get to where ever you want to take Lutherie.

Good luck to ya!

Mistakes are why I build, if I could make a perfect guitar, I would probably quit!
Btw, I totally will ghost build if any one wants it

Thanks Hesh! If I had my druthers I would build things full time and quit my day job. Sadly this is not a realistic idea, at least for now. In the short term I just need to build some guitars (maybe some mandolins) and learn. Learn a lot. Maybe one day people will want to buy something I made, and I could slowly make the transition from working a desk job full time and building part time to trying to make a living at it, but for now that seems like a pipe dream.

Funny you mentioned that about you and Mario and the wood. I have a 1"x 1/2" piece of WRC that I've been carrying around with me for about a month now!


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I cut fret slots on my first 4 with a hand saw and hated it. It's worth the $9 to let LMI do it for me. Otherwise I make all the wood parts, and truss rods.

Great advice Hesh. and yeah $.99/hr seems about right, if you don't factor in tool costs! Then it's about $-9.99/hr.