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Hello,

Was researching alternative finishes. The quest for a balanced no VOC finish... I looked at Truoil for gunstock, it seems ok, msds seems like its not very harmful. I actually accidentally clicked on a google link which put my search for wood floor finishes. First or second link and bam there was this website for a one coat non voc floor finish with all the miracles and hallelujahs.

http://www.monocoat.us/

Is this viable? The MSDS on the finish is just about as safe as on could hope for.

Walnut oils are also very safe but it seems they will not be durable at all, or so i read. Let me know the internets expert opinion.

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Or even more

http://www.ecospaints.net/clear-varnish.html

Maybe i am getting a little off topic from guitar building. I also am making a table right now for the kitchen, the reason why i am looking at different finishes now. Its also just good to know info. Thanks in advance for any comments.

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Their advertising seems heavy on green and light on durability. I use Danish oil as the first coat on all my instruments then protect that coat with urethane. The amount of voc's that I produce per instrument is negligible.

Bob

I/m alway suspicious of bandwagoners peddling . eco-friendly, green, environmentally friendly and a host of other new age nebulous finishes. that don/t mean much.

Anyone here formed an opinion on it by actually using it?

I'm intrigued...

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The Monocoat brand is pretty expensive for a liter, but as it says it only needs one coat. Hence the name... The Varnish is not so bad though. Would be awesome if someone here used a no VOC substance and could weigh in here.

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Michiyuki my friend through the years here on the OLF and other forums we have watched with hope.... as new finishes come and usually unfortunately go too. Depending on what year one is in when reading the archives you will find lots of folks relating their first-hand experiences with some of these finishes.

What seems to result, much of the time, is that the promises may be inflated, the performance may be lacking, and my favorite, some enthusiastic sort at a finish company gets the bright idea that "hey - why can't we sell this stuff to guitar makers too... after all I play guitar and think that it would look great on a guitar."

So we get specifically targeted over and over again and as mentioned the results can be less than stellar....

What in my opinion and observation often happens is even though these attempts at building a new niche market for the latest and greatest miracle-wondercoat-leave-all-your-finishing-woes-behind finish-flavor-of-the-week can at least initially sound attractive they often are less than desirable for what we do.

Typically the reason why is that these companies often are clueless as to what exactly it is that we do do and more importantly exactly what it is that our instruments have to be able to do, withstand, and why.

Many musical instruments, often the really good ones, can be built on the edge so-to-speak where all the qualities and down sides of the materials that we use may come into play. Talented Luthiers will learn to use much of this to their advantage exploiting things such as expansion and contraction to make it work for us.

With this said it will be interesting to watch this finish once someone actually tries it, documents the experience well, reports their findings, and then lets time and perhaps some single-malt scotch drooling friends attempt to ruin the new finish on the new instrument.

Time will tell but I am mentioning this because what I am really speaking to here is the reluctance for some of us to get excited about anything new that we may encounter. The old expression, been there, done that, got the t-shirt, next.... seems to apply well....

Anyway if you are looking for a very low VOC finish that does work within it's limitations of course...., and is more than time tested french polished shellac fits the bill very nicely.

If the denatured alcohol concerns you, me too and I completely understand and this is why I use 190 proof grain alcohol which eliminates many of the unsavory chemicals in denatured alcohol. French polished shellac (FPS) can be stunningly beautiful, in fact it's my personal favorite especially for how it ambers over time, safe to apply, can be done without ventilation although ventilation is better, and needs no monitory investment in spraying equipment, explosion proof lighting and fans, etc.

The down side is it's not all that tough but certainly tough enough for an adult owned instrument but sadly not the single-malt scotch droolers....

Hey Hesh, I've read about the 190 proof before a while back and had forgotten about it till you just mentioned it. I'll try and get some help looking for some around here, wouldn't know where to start. I have pretty much narrowed the guitar finish to French polishing for me, but! It still is interesting about these products. Most of the products are American only but I'd be tempted to buy the varnish just to try it out.

Just to clarify, does the 190 proof work just the same as denatured? I would assume the quality is the same.

Thanks for your thorough input as always. Also thanks to the other guys too, everyone's .02 is better than nothing.

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Yes the 190 proof stuff is mixed with shellac the very same way and provides the same "cut" as we would mix with DA. The difference though is that I think that the 190 proof stuff gasses off a bit faster, right before your eyes as we apply the shellac. So use it the very same way as we would use DA in all respects except, of course, in a pinch you can drink the 190 proof stuff if you care to....

It can be hard to find. I'm in Michigan and we only can get the 150 proof grain alcohol under the brand "Everclear." In a neighboring state, Indiana you can get the 190 proof Everclear so I just ask a friend from Indiana to bring me some when I need it. In our commercial shop we keep a couple of gallons of it at all times perhaps not so much for french polishing but for when we have a party.... Kidding of course...

Anyway I was attracted to the lack of nasty chemicals in grain alcohol and have observed no issues using it.

By the way when it comes to discussing tone on these forums I'm always reluctant to give much in the way of impressions because tone is so very subjective. But I have to tell you that in my opinion FP is a tonally superior finish and what I hear is more of the wood and less of the finish. A good thing.

I like French polishing with everclear also. One shot for the rubber thing-a-ma-bob one for the luthier.
No wonder it takes me so long....

Mikey

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I love building guitars!

Yeah, but don't get any of that fruit punch on your guitar!

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Hesh , Why don/t you confess and tell us the real reason you like FP is it because Everclear in non-pollouting, eco-friendly, green product that goes down nicely whether for FP or imbibing. I like it too, but unfortunately it doesn/t like me.

I have read many opinions about that tone. The more finish there is the more it is dampened is what i have been reading. I guess it just depends on how thick it is?

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Oh no you don't Ernie, trying to portray me as a tree hugger (even though I am..... ).

The "real" reason that I like Everclear 190 for FP is that it works very well and as mentioned does not contain the nasty stuff that DA does.

This year will be the 13th year for me that I no longer drink.

Regarding finish thickness - yes finish thickness can be a problem and most certainly is for many f*ctory instruments that have finishes so very thick that you can't know if you are hearing finish or wood.

I've thought for a very long time now that perhaps the as-close-as-one-can-get-to-a-perfect-finish-for-both-tonal-benefits-and-some-protection-for-the-instrument..... is a FPed top with either lacquer or cat poly sides and back depending on the level of anticipated abuse the instrument may encounter. Still want to try this here.

Ditto,hesh My thoughts are evolving in that direction . I just FP ed a tenor uke top starting with 2 brush coats of blonde dewax shellac followed by orange shellac that has minute traces of cinammon oil eucalyptus oil sandarac and benzoin. I/m trying this method for fp on a classical as well ,to get a harder type finish which will hopefully be harder. I use the thinned behlens rock hard . for the back an sides. When i run out of behlens I will try epifanes or for ss, use straight behlens laquer as well. cheers www.ateliertomistrings.com

Would a FP back and sides not be feasible?

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It is absolutely feasible! The reason for doing a french polish on the top only is that it is the part of the guitar that produces the most sound. Having a thinner coat of finish on it reduces damping you would otherwise get from other kinds of finish that go on thicker.
Although, being thinner also means that it doesn't protect the wood from physical harm as well (scratches from belt buckles, picks, nails, etc).

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Not much but at least it exists : http://jbluthier.com/

If you want durability, you can't beat 2K urethanes or polyester. If you want a balance of durability and repairability, you can't beat traditional nitrocellulose. If you want the ultimate in repairability but reasonable durability (as long as the owner is careful), then go with french polish.

Anything else is just wishful thinking. Think about this: Just about every factories use 2K or nitrocellulose (for higher end factory guitars), and traditional luthiers use french polish. If waterbase worked industries would have jumped on it yesterday.

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Typhoon Guitars
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What Joel said.

A FPed finish is great sonically but provides only limited protection from dings, scotch-drooling-friends, etc. OTOH if the guitar is adult owned, you're not into the Who's music and mimicking Townshend-style-windmills FPing the entire guitar can be both rewarding and fun if your arm survives....

I think i will try the FP for the first probably will take forever i am sure... The neck will be worn out though pretty quick with the oil from peoples hands though right?

I found some 96% drinkable alcohol. I asked another Luthier in Austria but they kept pointing me to isopropyl (Rubbing Alcohol) .

Funny i found some on Amazon

http://www.amazon.de/Primasprit-Weingei ... rimaspirit

lol!

Wish someone had some kind of experience with the new types of no VOC finishes, I guess i will either have to try myself or wait

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Maybe the reason why we can get the 190 proof stuff is that we are a bunch of drunks..... Kidding of course, well kind of....

Regarding the FP shellac wearing off the back of the neck. Yes it can do that and one of my favorite guitars that I built and kept was/is my test mule. It's had different tops on it, different bridges, and the neck has been removed at least 10 times now for experiments that I do and did.

Anyway I love the thing, it's the blond in my avatar pic and it's FPed shellac. The back of it's neck is getting a bit fuzzy feeling as the shellac wears down and off. I don't mind though and prefer the feeling over a tacky, sticky gloss finish with say nitro.

But the beauty of FP is that if I wanted to do so, and I don't yet is with some quick sanding and reapplication of FPed shellac to the back of the neck and it's as good as new. No witness lines, no adhesion issues, you can always add more shellac when ever you want (provided that you are cautious about avoiding polishes and cleaners with silicon in them).

This makes FPed shellac infinitely "serviceable" which is always a good thing to me because it means that I can repair as needed.

Also the term french polish refers to a method of application not the substance being applied. Although through the years french polish usually means shellac it does not have to. It's like the term "kerfing" which specifically refers to the voids from a saw in the "kerfed linings" but folks wrongly call kerfed linings "kerfing."

It's a great finish, a personal favorite of mine for both beauty and sonically not to mention lack of toxicity AND it's pretty relaxing to do too with some tunes playing.

We had a mando in from the turn of the century, two turns back now and the finish was still in great shape. Nitro cellulose lacquer is approaching being 100 years old and we are expecting it to start disintegrating and we have actually seen examples of this already too. Lots of these iconic pre-war guitars are going to start losing finish any time now too. But all the while shellac just keeps on keeping on. A good thing!