Official Luthiers Forum!

Martin does indeed carry a large inventory of wood. They try to carry a years supply or more. They also have special kilns. Drying wood is pretty much a science now and much advanced from old days. A kiln cycle is often 28 days or more. Kiln dried wood will be more stable than air dried wood that is less than 5 yr old.
Yes this process does add to the price but people will determine the final market . This process is nothing new and has been around a long time. The reason they are trying it was to replicate "vintage" tone. If there is a market , it will sell and having seen and played a few , it does sound "vintage". The wood cell is changed in the molecular level much like 100 yr old wood.
Lets face it , there is always someone out there looking for an edge to make the guitar sound better than the next guy. Since this is a subjective thing how good it will be is up to the buyer. Supply and demand works.
There is a supplier in Canada that has what he calls baked tops and that process takes days. A few hours in an oven is not going to change the cells on a molecular level but it can indeed lower the surface moisture content.
I would not recommend anyone to put wood in a 400 degree oven in a house.

There are many good points in this thread. One often overlooked point is wood storage. How wood is handled and stored does have an influence on the end product. I have tops on my shelf from 1999 and seldom use anything that is less than 2 yrs old. I do and have used kiln dried wood. Air dried wood needs good air circulation . Wood is always looking for equilibrium and you will see the dry side cup up. Understand how wood holds and releases moisture and you will learn much to make you a better builder.
This process of torryfication is just another ingredient in the building process. Is it good or bad , time will tell. Martin is not about to do this to all the tops but it will add to the line to satisfy a product need. If it really does make for a better sounding guitar , the market will tell. Humans hate change and remember that no true discovery was done with status quo thinking.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

This is a good thread with posts by folks that know what they are talking about. Haans, I remember 10 or 11 years ago when I first called Walter Lipton to buy wood. He asked me how many instruments I had built. I think it was 7 or 8. He said- "I can't let you have the good stuff yet". I liked that.

Recently I called Old Standard to order some tops and they described a process similar to what is being discussed. They seemed to imply they were doing it themselves but the wood was not available to the general public.

New technology always has a learning curve and the only real test is how it performs the first few years in the real world in the hands of the average user. That is certainly true in the medical device industry where it's usually not in your best interests to be an early recipient of "groundbreaking new technology".

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/wood.html

The above link has some interesting things to say about hemicellulose degradation in musical instruments, which is one of the effects of torrefaction of wood. Properly done it does have some of the same qualities as "aged" wood.
I think many of us prefer to use old wood. I have some tops that were probably cut and dried at least 60 years ago (they were old when I bought them 35 years ago) but most of my soundboards are 5 to 10 years old, stickered and seasoned in an unregulated temp/humidity attic space for most of that time. Not bad, but not "vintage" either. If the torrefaction process could enhance the hemicellulose degradation and add some extra "years" of aging that might not be a bad thing.
If some of the eventual "bellying" of soundboards on old guitars is due to the loss of strength from hemicellulose degradation (speculation on my part) then maybe using wood that is already degraded and bracing accordingly would make an instrument that is more stable and less likely to need a neck reset.
Torrifiying tops in a home oven might not be a great way to go, but here may be an opportunity for a luthier supplier to contact a firm that does that and have them cook up a batch of tops (for resale to the general public).

Most of the bellying is from cold creep . Under stress and time things will move . How a piece of treated wood will work is still in the air but time will tell.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Like everyone else here, I have no idea whether torrefaction will prove beneficial to the luthier community, but I do know that without innovation the guitar itself would never have been invented. An open mind is a beautiful thing.

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George :-)

I know this forum is about building/repairing guitars, but someone has to be the Hippie in the room.
For me, any benefit (perceived improvement in tone) must now be weighed against cost (environmental).

Don't we have to draw a line somewhere?
Sorry for the can of worms. I'm headed for my sandbag bunker now.

"Most of the bellying is from cold creep . Under stress and time things will move "

I believe you are right, John. Having cold bent guitar sides I think most of the deformation is due to stress acting over time. But some component of it may also be a change in the structure of the wood which happens over time, as some researchers seem to indicate.
I don't think I'll rush right out and torrify my stash of wood, but I would be open to trying the product.

So, to bring things around to op's point...

Anyone know where an open minded builder can buy a torrefied top or two to actually have the experience of handling/building with it?

I love it when someone asks for commentors to have direct knowledge and experience, the thread gets killed.....

Which makes me wonder if folks only posted when they have direct experience, knowledge and not opinions how many posts would the OLF have compared to what we have now........ This is not endemic to the OLF only either, it's the nature of forums.

As such I came up with a new joke...

What do you get when you have 100 pro, working in the trade Luthiers in one forum room?

Silence......

But in the case of pros the reasons are different and not for a lack of experience or knowledge. Lack of participation on forums in my experience asking this question to many, many Luthiers indicates that pros are simply too busy to play grab-arse on Internet forums. And then there is that all present risk of some snot-nosed-newb with no skin in the game coming along and harming the reputation of the pro who DOES have something to lose. These two reasons seem to be the big two why more pros don't participate on forums. But no one asked this question and I digressed, again...

Anyway see how my word count never suffers one way of the other....

Let's get this man a torrified top!

http://www.torrefactionplus.ca/home.php

If Old Standard or the company above is actually doing guitar tops perhaps someone could organize a group buy as has been done for zipflex. They may not be set up for retailing small quantities to individuals, but may be willing to sell "wholesale"

"Which makes me wonder if folks only posted when they have direct experience, knowledge and not opinions how many posts would the OLF have compared to what we have now........ This is not endemic to the OLF only either, it's the nature of forums."

Discourse naturally leads to people giving their opinions on a topic and often brings to light more information, which helps people make informed decisions and adds to their knowledge. It could also show the level of interest in a process or product, which might induce a vendor to put the product on offer.

Go for it...group hug...eh buy!
I'm sure someone will sell you some torrasmgorified spruce...or, hey, why not contact the above, below:

http://www.torrefactionplus.ca/home.php

Send them the spruce and for a price they will do it. It's bidne$$...
Then, instead of continuous speculation and as Hesh said "Let's get Mikey to do it!", you will have done something yourself.
What a concept!

Appreciate that Clay but please tell me something that I didn't already know.....

There is currently another thread here (you'll have to find it on your own I'm at work and up to my elbows in broken Martins...) where a poster is also asking for folks who actually know what they are talking about to reply....

What a concept!

I'm with Hans now we just have to find a Mikey!

Don't need Mikey. My wood is hansified!

[quote="Hesh"]:D Appreciate that Clay but please tell me something that I didn't already know.....

There is currently another thread here (you'll have to find it on your own I'm at work and up to my elbows in broken Martins...) where a poster is also asking for folks who actually know what they are talking about to reply....

What a concept!

Well, I guess that leaves me on the outside looking in! I'll check back in, in a couple/ten years when I can tell my elbow from my....well, you know what!

I think that not having direct knowledge or experience on a topic doesn't mean that you cannot raise pertinent points or questions. If direct knowledge were required to participate in a discussion, the OLF would be a ghost town, with only the experienced crossing swords. Just my 2 cent opinion.



Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

In my experience wood actually loses some stiffness as it ages naturally and the density decreases as well. Even though the wood is slightly weaker, it's stiffness to weight ratio actually increases, which most would agree is a desirable effect.
I am very interested to do some tests with torrefication to see exactly what happens to the material properties before and after.
My guess is that the wood would be improved by the process but some research needs to be done.

I know a lot more about torrified wood products than before I saw this thread. Before seeing it I had never even heard of the process (making charcoal I was familiar with). Reading about the changes it makes in wood products (loss of hemicellulose) and correlating that to what happens as wood ages, I have become curious if it does in fact "improve" the wood. I still have no direct experience using the material, and I still can not offer the OP a source to purchase the material. These are my short comings. To those who have contributed to my education, I thank you!

Apparently Huss and Dalton used some as well.

I've sent emails to Bourgeois and the Canadaian torrefaction place, let's see if there's a response. If the rumor is that Dana's getting it from a CAN supplier, would that not rule out Old Standard?

Anyway, if ever anyone should come across a source, please advise. I will Mikey the snot out of it all over the place....

I had never heard of the word "torrefaction" until this thread....

But, I'm open-minded and instead of dismissing something new or different, I instead become interested in exploring it for myself. That way, if I am to offer an opinion at a later date, it will at least be an informed one instead of a 'guess'.

I haven't followed or read any of the links provided, but since I make my own lump charcoal, I can offer some experience that might allow the process to be done at home. Or at least, at some member's home if y'all want to send him/her some wood to be torrified. I learned to make charcoal some time back, and it's very simple, using some simple improvised items. Charcoal, like this process, from what I'm reading in the thread, is also created in a zero-oxygen environment. That's what prevents the wood chunks from simply burning to ashes instead of becoming lump charcoal. For charcoal, I load either a one or 5 gallon paint can(steel, obviously) with its lid having a dozen or so 1/8" to 3/16" holes punched in it, full of wood chunks(birch, in my case), fix the lid tightly. Build a nice small fire, and toss the can onto it. In a few minutes, it'll sound like a small jet plane, with the gasses exiting from the holes burning fiercely. If you were to capture and bottle this gas, you would have yourself a gasification unit...! But I digress.... The environment inside the can instantly becomes oxygen-free because of the gasses.

For torrifying(is that really a word?), we would need a larger chamber that can be sealed reasonably well such that it only allows gasses to escape at the top and not allow fresh air to enter from below. I'm thinking a 45 gallon steel drum would be just the ticket. Suspend the wood inside somehow, maybe build a false floor about a foot off the bottom. Place the lid on it tightly, with holes drilled, or course, or one large hole with an adjustable gate to control the escaping gasses. Place it over a turkey fryer burner, or some similar heat source and fire it up! Only remaining item would be a accurate mechanical thermometer to read the interior temperature, but these can be found readily.

Now, what's the temperature goal, and for how long? If I were to mess around with the process, I'd use B grade spruce tops, and only do a few halves, keeping their bookmatched other halves untorrified for comparing the results to.

Discuss.....

Actually Alex my freind I am firmly in the camp that wants folks, everyone... to always ask any question that they may have! I too think that it makes for a better experience for most if not all OLFers.

We have had some battles over this subject in the past and other forums may have been a bit too quick to send people on their own into the archives to search, and search, and search....

I just thought that it was interesting that in one single day, two seperate threads, two members expressed some fustration that posters in the thread may not have been addding value at the desired level.

If you have a question buddy ask away, always, and some of us are also very keen to be helpful with PMs. For years I heard from OLFers nearly every day with questions that they did not feel comfortable for one reason or another.... asking on the forum. I'm always happy to help and always will be.

Back to charcoal and wood....

I agree completely.
Much of the wood I use now was cut by me 30 or more years ago. I have watched it go through the stages of natural seasoning, so I know what to expect once it is turned into a guitar.
A correllary to this concept is to do just enough machining to take out the drudgery. I have found that the more hand work I do, the better I come to know that particular piece of wood. As a result, I still hand make all my bridges, carve necks and braces from blocks, etc. I am not knocking CNC machining per se, but it's not for me.

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John

I've made enough mistakes, and am thick skinned enough to be unafraid to ask those questions.
When I started doing woodworking 35 years ago, I was lucky enough to work with several experienced guys who patiently answered question after question, day in and day out without rolling their eyes at me. Years later, I became one of the experienced guys that people sought help from. I see that same helpfulness here every day.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Allllllrighty then!

For anyone interested in trying a torrefied red spruce top for themselves, please see...

adirondackwoodsupply@hotmail.com

135$, so not a cheap experiment, but what the hell. You only live once, right?

Cheers,

Ed <Mikey Mikey Mikey>

When I scrape up a few extra beans and get one, I'll let you know my impressions. Next question, anyone have a 50 year old adi top they'll sell for comparison?

That's the spirit Ed!!!! Er I mean Mikey.....

No 50 year old Adi here but we do have 50 year old German.

John (and Lance!) it might be cool to have a seperate forum for the best of the best of the OLF. A place were really good threads and/or posts can go. If we had that Han's post might be the first one in there!

On a related note what I always wanted to be as a Luthier when I grow up was very much the sort that Hans is describing and surely is. The guys with a feel for the wood and materials, an eye for design, and a passion for tone. It's old world meets present age and very, very cool to me!

Since we're talking about natural vs artificial curing of wood I'll ask the question - Is wood "seasoned" in a controlled environment different than in natural environmental conditions where there are significant fluctuations in temp and humidity? I was taught my both old timers and expert violin builders that (in the NE) it is best to store wood in unconditioned spaces with reasonable air circulation for a minimum of 3-5 years at a minimum before using it. I believe that most large production companies store their wood in temp/humidity controlled spaces. If wood doesn't go through radical swings in environment from dry to wet, cold to hot (even freezing) does it actually season? It reaches equilibrium fairly quickly and in a controlled environment it seems like not much more actually takes place at the molecular level in a few years. Before the 40s-50s Martin stored their wood in the attic where it would acclimate in fluctuating conditions and I presume they didn't temper the environment in 17th & 18 Cremona Italy?
Tim

It takes air drying about 5 years to stabilize wood a month or so in the kiln. In kiln dried wood the cell is collapsed. Air dried not. I have used both. I still hold tops 5 yrs before I use them 3 on kiln. I like stable wood.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it