Official Luthiers Forum!

Glad I'm not the only one. Lol

I had the opportunity to closely examine several sets of "The Tree" that were for sale at a recent NCAL meeting. The prices were between $2500 and $4500 a set, depending on the quality of the figure and color. I took away several observations from the experience:

a) The tap tone of all the backs (4 or was it 5 sets?) was not impressive. Yes, they did boing slightly, but none of them had much sustain at all....fairly "cardboardy" IMO (a bit like walnut), which is my usual finding with mahogany.
b) No one bought any at all.
c) I have about 15 bd.ft. of bubble figure mahogany (four large boards from "A Tree") in my stash that IMO have much nicer figure. One of these days I'll resaw them and sell a few sets maybe...

If a customer insisted on a guitar with a set from "The Tree", I'd first try to persuade them to use something a bit more reasonably priced, and with a bit more zing in the tap tone department, but if they really insisted, I'd buy a set from somewhere, and charge them appropriately. Simple.

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Above I was asked my opinion -- I don't have one, as my customers will attest I don't get involved in the vanity woods at all. If my suppliers send something special (bear claw, quilt, curl what ever) in a batch, the next in line gets its it if they want it. The same with what we resaw. I don't charge extra.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I guess I must have missed something in the back story which others find so compelling. Other than the fact that it was a large mahogany tree that was difficult to harvest, and that parts of it were nicely figured, what makes it so special?
A few years back someone posted some pictures of a guitar they made from some planks taken off an old mahogany boat. To me that had a more interesting story behind it (not that I would pay $2500 for a set of guitar wood from said source).

Zeke,
How many guitar sets do you think you can resaw out of "The Cross" ?

"Vanity woods", I like that. Goes with "Royalists"...
I, in my time have bought a few sets of BRW, and a couple odd sets of semi-expensive vanity wood, but nothing like this stuff. Realizing that kind of wood doesn't belong on the instruments I build, I've sold most all of it off except for the BRW.
A good story is not worth $4500.
Imagine the upharge to the Roya...ah, customer. Sorry sir, that set of "The Tree" will cost you $12,000, and the total charge for your "Vanity guitar" will be $45,000. Of course, that's minus the $18,000 "discount" you get for pimping my brand name on every guitar site online continuously and making all kind of yootoob video's of this guitar and "cloud-loud" clips with photos of you kissing the guitar...and don't forget to have a pro do the mastering of the recordings.
These Roya..ah, customers actually push the builders in the direction they want to go and push the tonal qualities too, not to mention aesthetics. These are the guys that attach "mystical qualities" to wood, and they buy not for tonal qualities, but for "investment". Builders get caught up in trying to one outdo the other and what do you end up with? Steampunk guitars with ducts and gears and puzzle rosettes. Klassy with a "K"...
I have a different take on building instruments. I would rather build a guitar for a working musician than some overstuffed pocket "customer". I actually prefer A grade red spruce (no not "Adirondack"), and for backs, my preferred woods are white oak, sapele, khaya, red maple, any other less than $100 wood. It's about tone, not vanity or stories.
Many of you would cringe at the number of "customers" I have turned down over the years because I didn't like what they had to say about a possible build from me or just didn't fit with my thoughts on tonal qualities. Just turned down one a couple of weeks ago on tone.
But then, I never have gone with the flow.

Yo Haans send them my way

Actually, any items value is based simply on what an individual is willing to pay for it. Nothing more, nothing less.



I was always under the impression that pushing the boundaries was a good thing. Without that you become stagnant and your skills never improve. If I have someone who wants a guitar and say they want some fancy rosette that is difficult. Rather than turn them away because I don't like their style I would be inclined to give it a try. Of course I would explain that it's a first for me and there could be issues but if they wanted to put their faith in me and give it a gamble I would try.

I turned down a "the tree" build a while ago. I figured that since the wood was more than my base price, I'd leave it for someone who'd charge as much as they could, not as little as they can survive on.

It's always important to make sure you client and artist are a good fit.

I actually don't see the issue. If someone wanted a "The Tree" build, I'm confient that I could make it sound good. As far as the price, I would show hem what it's going to cost to acquire the material and then tack it on top of the instrument, while explaining to them that the quilted mahogany set I have for $250 will likely sound as good or better.

People can make up their mind.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Just curious

How does the rest of this conversation go?

Of course I would explain that it's a first for me and there could be issues but if they wanted to put their faith in me and give it a gamble I would try.

And if I happen to screw it up I will.............................

Goes like this:

I will do another in a more familiar style free of charge if that's acceptable. If not then I won't charge you for the work I've done. I then finish the instrument in a manner of my choosing and then sell it to someone else.

Thought that was pretty self explanatory but I guess if you have never taken a risk on a new approach then you wouldn't understand.

Sorry -- I see now in your profile, that you are a hobbyist and guitar making is not how you make a living. I think as a general rule professionals in any field only contract based on what they are capable of delivering be it goods or services. Your new approach would make lawyers very happy.

Actually as a professional in my field (non ferrous sand casting and machining) I regularly take jobs that push the limits of what we have done before. If you aren't always expanding your business then your business is doomed to fail. Maybe in the guitar building world it's different since most of the guitar businesses die or retire with the builder. But from a typical business standpoint if you turn down a job because it is difficult or something you haven't done before then your business will not go far. Part of the reason we are one of the few left in our field in this country today. We don't say no, we just do it. We take the hard jobs no one else want to have. In the business world "no" is a wrong approach.

Good opinion paragraph.

I think most would call your strategy "flying by the seat of your pants" I would disagree with it, and site that companies that have competent research and development departments that do their jobs before a product or service it put on the market are the ones that succeed overwhelmingly. I don't think it goes over big with employees if the directors say hey we are going to take chance and do such and such and if it does not work you don't get paid for your time and stakeholders stock values will plummet as well. I don't think that happens in the casting industry either. -- just my opinion.

Zeke buddy I admire you for your drive and ambition!

There is a little company that has the distinction of having once been the largest company in world history who sees things a bit differently.

Job one is shielding the company from potential liability, job two is making money.... Now I understand in advance that when you have the deepest corporate pockets in the world you tend to run into lots of slip and fall artists and folks carrying around their own cockaroach in a jar.... But for any business person there is a lesson here about potential liablity and how it can sink even the best of run ships....

Not only is liability an unwelcome thing for any business in my view it's not very professional to view client property and instruments as a proving ground for expanding chops.... That's what beaters that WE own are for and I also believe that with clients there is more than an expectation that we know what we are doing that likely including having done it before as well.

Then there is the issue of opportunity costs. While someone may be expanding their horizons with a client instrument taking in the toughest of the tough jobs as a learning experience it's also likely that your billable rate is taking a huge hit in that the bread and butter jobs can't be done if you are doing something else.

I admire wanting to get great at anything and I fully understand niche markets and could write a book about same but at the end of the day if certain types of jobs have undue risk, cause you to lose money in opportunity costs, have the additional risk of damaging something of value that does not belong to you and all the while a client can make a case that one misrepresented their abilities when their instrument gets destroyed - why go there?

I also understand that a commissioned instrument is not exactly like customer property.... or is it..... Sure title has not transfered yet but what about the client's expectations do they believe it's their's from the moment that sides are bent? Repairs are a bit different - the instruments are client property period and need to always be treated with the highest regard and utmost respect.

The company was GE who is also well known for pushing the bleeding edge and products that have great potential liability associated with them such as jet engines and nuclear power plants. They also have a corporate culture of being number one or two in all that they do or they won't do it. Interesting!

Anyway I do admire you for the drive and ambition but would also caution you about opportunity costs, client expectations, liability and even the ethics of opening up a business for the perception that you are achomplished in something that may be a first time out for you.

Our repair business will turn away business and does it every day. If it's something that we don't want to do or represents high risk or is a basket case with likely an undiscovered county of unknown scope creep issues we decline. One of the reasons is that we can better serve the majority of our clients if we don't attempt to be everything to everyone. And of course there are jobs that you make more on and jobs that you make far less on too. For certain clients we will take on jobs that we might not otherwise. It's case by case but always with the mind's eye on what it takes to keep the ship afloat for another day.

I hope something here is helpful to you and others - that's how it's intended.

Hesh,
That is a very accurate assessment and for the most part how we do business. I agree with pretty much everything you have said. There are jobs that are turned away for one reason or another. But just because it is something new or different we don't turn up our noses. I think the key word I left out in my previous post would be "prototype". We don't accept large production orders on experimental processes or products. We prototype. Just as a lot of our customers come to us for prototypes for their customers. If a person wanted to commission a guitar with a new feature and I agreed to give it a go I would be sure that the customer understood that it was a prototype and all of the details that go along with what that means for them, me, and the guitar.

I am basically the guy in this video it resonates so well with my day job

I do however think that for most things guitar if you have not done it before you can but it may require more time and more mistakes to fix and even do overs. The one thing I will turn down is inlay work because I hate it and frankly don't think it looks good. I'd also steer some one in the right direction if they came to me wanting a neck reset on their '37 Martin. I could do it but I won't.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg[/youtube]

I'm trying to follow the opinions in the thread. For quick clarification, have you built with a set from The Tree? I know you don't think it's inherently better than other boards, but I'm not sure if you've built with it or not?

Ahh, Hesh, you are a smooth talker.
I just don't have the time to iron it all out, so you get rough outta me.
JF, how many Stella 12's have you made? Can you play Bourgeois Blues, Tight like That, Blind Lemon? Do you have a top notch recording studio? I'd be happy to send you his email, but the guy is trouble...
That's something you learn after a while. You know what you build, they still want you to build an Olson for them. "But I don't build Olsons, I build Larson copies". "Who?" I build Stellas, You mean those cheap Harmonys? Can you build me a Loar F5 that sounds like a Gilchrist?
Let me know when you want me to tell those guys to give you a call...just sportin' with ya...

"You know what you build, they still want you to build an Olson for them."

When someone asks me to build an instrument like one I've built previously, I hesitate to agree to it. Every instrument I build is a little different, whether by design or accident. I just try to make them sound good. I offer the same choices as my Mother did for dinner - take it or leave it.

for the pro's I have a question on handling expensive woods, how do you negotiate the possible costs involved with very expensive woods that crack or become unusable for some reason??? Do you explain up front that the venetian bend the customer wants may just not make it thru the bender unscathed???

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MK5acoustics.com

not a pro but I would think the up charge would have to be a multiple of the cost of the set. If 2 x you at least get 2 chances. I also think that until I could built and sell a guitar such that the up charge was not greater than the normal price of my guitar I would avoid working with wood in that price range.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

Not a pro, but, I think that's what the up charge for the wood is for. If you notice the up charge for woods is considerably more than the actual cost. Part of that IMO is to cover the unfortunate event of ruining the set of wood. The trickier it is to work with the more it costs to the consumer.

Not sure what your point is.

If someone wanted a "The Tree" build, I'd source some material if possible, and if they wanted a guitar made from it, I'm sure I could build him a nice sounding guitar out of it.

Why is that a hard line of thought to follow?

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Old growth, shmold growth!