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after reading many posts by Hugh Evans I have switched to titebond extend, stuff is great to work with.. here is a post from a topic I bookmarked..FYI..
this is a post by Hugh Evans not me...





"Hands down Titebond Extend Original is my favorite general purpose wood glue for luthiery. When used in conjunction with sizing I've personally achieved open assembly times in excess of 25 minutes. It also contains fillers than enhance its thermal resistance and therefore its resistance to creep as well. Unless you are in a production environment and need extremely rapid processes, Titebond Extend has nothing but advantages. Titebond Supreme is another nice product if you want the performance benefits of Extend and the short assembly time of Original... Although it still offers longer closed assembly time, which allows for final adjustments prior to final clamping. All of these adhesives will steam apart for maintenance without difficulty as well. Again, Titebond Extend is without question my top recommendation.

Unless you are using RF in your process or have a special application, there are no advantages to using Titebond II. Not to mention it can be more of a pain to steam apart. Under no circumstances do I ever recommend Titebond III for use in a musical instrument. TB III should really be called Titebond Cutting Board & Wooden Countertop, as these are among the only truly proper uses for it. It's also a great product for laminating skateboard decks as it is a close relative of Multibond SK-8, which is an industrial product from Franklin targeted specifically at the skateboard industry.

PS- With respect to shelf life, Titebond Original and Extend can last for well over a decade if stored properly. While replacing it at least once every year is by no means harmful, as long as the product flows and spreads normally it will continue to perform as well as fresh product because they do not degrade chemically over time... Instead they just lose moisture, which can be remedied by adding small amounts of water. A little goes a very long way: 5% addition of water will decrease the viscosity, thickness, by half while a 10% addition will reduce it by 75%. In both cases there is no appreciable impact on strength at these dilution levels. Optimal storage conditions are generally similar to a basement, where temperature is relatively constant between 60°F and 70°F at all times with humidity around 50%. The oldest bottle of Titebond Original I ever tested was 19 years old. After tapping it on the corner of a desk for a few minutes to restore its consistency, the product worked as well as if it had just come off the production line. This is true for all non ANSI/HPVA Type I or Type II PVA/resin-modified PVA/aliphatic resin adhesives"

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MK5acoustics.com

Hmmm I never heard of Titebond extend. I love fish glue for it's long open time and it's initial tack. It cleans up with water wonderfully too. For crack repairs I don't think it can be beat because of said properties.

Toonces I think I will run this experiment too. Though it's been very dry in Virgina lately the humidity is coming!

I got some Titebond Extend to try, and found that I didn't seem to get much more open time at all over regular Titebond, which I no longer use. I much prefer LMI's instrument Makers Glue (old version - jury's still out on the new one) as it dries much harder. That said, my preferred glue is HHG, as I find it much easier to use than anything else, except for a few applications. Titebond tends to stay a little rubbery for my taste and it's takes forever to tack. It's like trying to glue greased parts. When gluing, I keep my shop near 78*, which gives me nearly 2 minutes of open time with HHG. I can even get a bit more if I warm the parts. I use LMI glue when I want to glue up and move on, rather than waiting for HHG to become fixed.

I will admit that I never tried sizing the glue surfaces with Titebond Extend.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

It's about the creep. Titebond is a creep, and he flows or fails catastrophically in relatively low heat - that of a parked car (say around 150F). In that situation, fingerboards slide and necks bend, only to set in that position once cooled. Argue all you want, but it IS a fact. Mandolins are the most obvious example because of their small gluing surface, and high tension. Can't begin to tell you how many recent vintage Gibsons I've encountered with neck stability issues that are basically not seen on instruments 60 years older. Saw a presentation by the head of Takamine years ago where he described the building process in detail. He said they used aliphatic resin for all the joints in the guitar except the fingerboard which got hide glue because "we want the neck to stay straight."

Now, hide glue does NOT creep, even in elevated temperatures, and unless there's a lot of moisture present, it doesn't let go. Here's a simple little test I did a decade and a half ago:

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/GlueTest/gluetest.html

OK, you can say overheating guitars is "abuse," but it's a reality, it does happen, and if I have my choice I'd rather protect against it. So, for me it's hide glue for bridges, the braces under bridges, and fingerboards. Also for lots of other situations where it is the best stuff to use, of course.

That all said, Titebond is fine stuff and millions of great guitars are built exclusively with it!

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Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
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Frank, I've read that article before, and it surprised me, simply because it's well known that one of the reasons for using hide glue is ease of disassembly. I've seen PLENTY of failed braces and slipped bridges from hide glue as well. So, one test you've performed aside, hide glue DOES fail and creep under heat.

In fact, contrary to what you've said, heat alone IS sufficient to loosen the bonds of hide glue monomers, as the hundreds of bridges I've removed by heat alone will attest, many of them hide glue. I don't use moisture for that process. In fact, the hide glue bridges let go while the wood is still cool enough for me to comfortably handle the wood after removal.

Also, the easiest necks to steam off to reset a neck are the hide glue joints. Titebond is a bit tougher. So, heat alone is sufficient to loosen a hide glue bond, heat and moisture is a killer. so, I would definitely be concerned if I left a guitar in a hot, 150 degree, HUMID trunk, titebond OR hide glue. That constitutes an abuse that should NEVER happen to a high quality handmade instrument. Yes it happens, but I'm not convinced that a hide glue job will stand up considerably better.

Heating a neck, clamping it straight, and letting cool is an accepted method to straighten out a neck, either titebond OR hide glue, I've done it to both. Being a thermoplastic polymer, this works with hide glue very well. I don't use moisture for that either.

Also, it's a fact that hide glue is composed of collagen, which is an organic protein thermoplastic polymer. One of the functions of collagen is to give strength AND elasticity to connective tissues such as ligaments, skin, and tendons. Collagen compounds, including hide glue, are quite elastic and flexible at the temperature of the human body, 98 degrees. So maybe the Takamine guys are well intentioned but mistaken in their notions? I've seen plenty of Takamine necks that have warped.

No doubt you will be upset that I'm not simply agreeing with you due to your experience in the field, which is considerable, but that article you posted is contrary to what I have personally seen over the course of repairing over ten thousand instruments myself over a span of 15 years in busy repair shops, and building instruments.

Besides, I was talking about COLD creep, not oven creep. So I might even be tempted to say that you refuted a straw argument, unintentionally.

I mean no disrespect, but I can't agree with you on this one.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

The only glue that is truly heat resistant, at least to the heat of a parked car, is epoxy. That quality also makes it impossible to disassemble unfortunately.

I know Frank Ford primarily repairs guitars for a living, so it makes sense he would use hide glue since it is better for that, and also if you need to incrementally glue a top or back onto a side, hide glue is perfect for this as well. That said I've assembled instruments with hide glue, and for the most part it worked well. However I have noticed the joint to be very brittle, and on a few instruments they worked itself loose for unknown reason without any wood damage. I have never seen titebond fail under any circumstances. If the glue failure is due to old glue, oil, etc. then you still have to clean the old glue off even if it's hide glue.

I always used titebond for fingerboard because I needed a lot of time to fully clamp a fingerboard but I have used hide glue before.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Interestingly, I came across this statement regarding fish collagen: "The lower proline and hydroxproline contents of cold-water fish and other poikilotherm animals leads to their collagen having a lower thermal stability than mammalian collagen." This would actually explain a lot.

One thing's for sure, I'm NEVER using fish glue, no matter how many anecdotal stories support it. There's just too many anecdotes against it, and the science confirm there's something to the problematic accounts.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Tai, you shouldn't assume that epoxy is heat resistant in a parked car. If you talking epoxy with a cure temperature of 100 C or more, you probably right, otherwise it depends and all bets are off. Cars can get awful hot, much hotter than 150 f depending on the conditions.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Well, Mr. Whisperer, I reckon we will continue to disagree. I'll stand by my observations, as, I'm sure you will, too.

Ever see a flat top guitar bridge slide forward, buckling the finish ahead of it? I think that's a common enough example of creep. (How hot is hot - how cold is cold, creep-wise?)

Hide glue necks easier to remove by steaming than Titebond? Guild used hide glue, and they are just about the meanest, nastiest customers for steaming. And I find the hardest Martins to take apart are some of the old tight hide glued dovetails, not the more recent aliphatic resin ones.

Tai - when it comes to out-and-out heat resistance, cyanoacrylate can be a good choice.

Oh, and I trust we won't have to talk about the possibility of undoing epoxy or cyanoacrylate joints. . .

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Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
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Sure!



I've seen that a lot with Gibson acoustics, fresh from the factory, often shipped in the middle of the summer. The fact that the finish is also buckled without shattering is more evidence of extreme heat and abuse. In fact, whenever any luthier talks about the supposed cold creep disadvantage of AR or PVA glues, this is the exact example they ALL bring up to prove their point. How is this an example of cold creep? Looks more like heat creep to me, although I guess compared to the surface of venus, for example, 150 degrees is pretty cold.



Guild's are notorious for having tough to remove necks, but not because of the glue, it's because of they're tighter neck joint with an almost non-existant gap in front of the dovetail, very tough to hit. The steam has a harder time circulating around the joint to loosen the glue. Martins never have that problem. I find old Martin necks to be fairly easy to remove the necks from, myself. With any glue, hide or AR/PVA, it's also possible for the wood to swell up, making the pieces harder to seperate. I run into that particular problem more with Gibsons than Martins, though.

Anyways, I don't have anything against hide glue, I just don't see why it's so great that dudes will fight tooth and nail to assert it's superiority. The purported advantages are either exaggerations or completely mythical in my view. I also find it amusing that sometimes dudes who use hide glue seem to think that the only reason a luthier would use Titebond is because they haven't been able to develop the skill to use hide glue, or their woodwork isn't good enough to get a good result with it.

They're both excellent glues to use in the construction of acoustic guitars. Take your pick.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Back in the old days people used whale oil for lighting, and had steam locomotives instead of cars.

It's like people wanting traditional materials but rejecting modern and better materials. Before oil was discovered, we used whale oil which is way worse than oil when it comes to the environment (save the whales!!!).

Fact is guitars cannot survive 150 F without damage! It does not matter what material was used.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

FWIW, i am a novice woodworker at best, but started from day one to use HHG (had no other choice, as that´s all my teacher used) and when i 1st tried Titebond i found it in no way easier to use than HHG, and quite a mess to clean up. I really don´t find any intrinsically difficult thing about HHG - if you have things well prepared in advance and work at a steady pace, it´s relatively straightforward, IMHO.
I must admit that, at least here in Portugal, there is a kind of arrogance amongst luthiers regarding the use of PVA glues, seen as a brute 2nd choice and all-together disrespectful for the holly tradition of fine old european lutherie. This, to me, is the worst thing about HHG - but i can leave with that.

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member of the guild of professional dilettantes

I've done the high Humidity test with Fish Glue:

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... =fish+glue

The salt and water was changed on a regular basis (every 4 or 5 days). After 6 weeks of this test I gave up. I couldn't get the glue to fail at 85% RH. There may have been VERY slight signs of the glue softening but it did not seem to get any worse. I suspect that at 85% RH it was on the cusp. A little higher (say 90%) and the signs may well have been much more obvious.
All wood samples in the test showed complete wood failure, including those kept at 85%. None showed any signs that the glue had failed in a destruction test. Note that these pieces were thin pieces of Spruce.
Take it for what it is. A test under the conditions set out but at a controlled RH level. Room temperature hovered but was never higher than 22 centigrade.
As of yet I haven't repeated the test at a higher temperature level.
I can't tell you why Tai's fish glue failed. I've never experienced such a failure with the glue in 7 years of use. Then again I only use it for specific applications.
Fish glue is a relatively 'modern' glue. It is not the same as Isinglass glue. In that sense it is similar to the liquid Hide glue i.e. liquid at room temperatures. Neither does it seem to spoil (mould) when stored for long periods of time, which you would expect of any liquid collagen based substance. Presumably something is acting as a preservative.

Hide Glue. It is one of the few glues that seems to be able to withstand extremely high heat. I often glue veneers lines on to Bindings and then bend that combination on a hot iron. Frequently these are Ebony bindings that require higher and prolonged temperatures. I've also successfully glued multiple side staves laminations with Hide and then bent the whole side on a hot iron. Hide Glue and Urea Formaldehyde are the two glues that seem to be able to withstand both the extreme heat of the bending iron and the tension involved when being subject to the stress of being bent. Providing that these glue joints are not starved the incidence of the veneer delaminating has been zero.
My experience of using PVA/Titebond for the same bindings/veneer is not quite as healthy. The glue simply cannot withstand the same degree of heat, hence why it is sometimes used as a pre glued veneer in furniture veneering applications - otherwise known as iron on veneering. They deliberately make use of it's thermoplastic nature.

Hi Frank,
I'm curious as to your take on why several antique Martins that I've repaired/restored have suffered severe hide glue failure.
Hight heat?, Humidity? Some microbe gobbled up the glue??


No other signs of abuse here at all.....
Then of course there was this Martin and Coupa/Martin and Schatz:

Well, hide glue IS food, I guess, so I can go with micro-critters eating it. I'd presume moisture would be present in that situation, too. I just finished up a 30s 000 that had somewhat more loose lining than your first example. Clearly some water marks inside, so no question about moisture there. NO real evidence of mold or growth.

_________________
Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
FRETS.NET

Are you bending completely dry? If so, what wood species and thickness for the sides? I'd think any spritzing with water or steam from a wet paper towel on the pipe would separate the hide glue right away. But maybe if you're quick enough, just the moisture in the wood at normal room conditions would be enough to facilitate the bend.

I've especially had trouble getting maple to bend without the paper towel trick.

Try wrapping the difficult sections in foil, usually the waist area. The foil helps the wood retain both the heat and it's 'natural' moisture content. You should find that it bends much easier, yet it remains flexible much longer - so you will have to 'lock it' until it cools and the bend is set.

I'm not jumping into the HHG vs. Titebond, vs. fish glue, "which is best", debate. I have used all three, in different luthier applications, over the last 20 years, so I am hoping that all will last indefinitely. I have had 3 joint failures that I am aware of. 2 were ebony bridges glued on cedar tops, and 1 was a center seam in a red spruce top. Titebond was used on all three joints. However, glue was not at fault in the failures. I am convinced that he bridges were my fault. They were done about the same time, late 90's, and I think that I failed to use enough glue, and had too much lag time in clamping. Luckily, they were both on my 2 sons' guitars, so I got my first glue lesson without making a paying customer mad. The center seam in the red spruce top was due to the guitar getting too hot, according to the owner. He had it re-glued at his expense and did not even tell me until a year or so later. I have since repurchased the guitar, due to financial needs of the owner, and I use it as a demo.

Now my real reason for chiming in. I know most of you are aware that Gibson had some problems with their glue in the late 40's and early 50's. 1952 and 1953 are particular years that I am extra careful with when purchasing Vintage Gibsons. What kind of glue were they using during these years. I have had several 1953 Gibsons, in which the glue had turned into sandy feeling powder and EVERY brace in it was loose. You could rub the excess glue off with a light swipe of the finger.

With hide glue joints inside the guitar I've always put a coat of shellac over the joint. It only takes a moment with a brush or airbrush and discourages humidity from getting at the glue. If I was ever to use fish glue I would do the same.
I love hide glue because it never complicates finishing. I only finish with shellac and nitro lacquer but I suspect that other finishes are equally prone to the rare but ugly stripes of off-color wood joints caused by titebond.

Seems to me that the only guitars that suffer from that are home made ones, I never see that on factory ones. In fact, I've never seen that on a homemade one, I've only heard stories that it happened to someone else.

I suspect process has something to do with it.

Every method has it's quirks, every quirk has it's workaround.

I don't consider quirks to be reason to avoid using a product.

I'm not discounting the possibility of a rogue chemical reaction, I've just never seen one.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I have a 53 Gibson hanging on the wall with the same symptoms. This one has another feature. All of the top braces are tucked into the kerfed lining. But they didn't notch the linings--just clamped the top down, and called it done. There's a 1/16" gap between the linings and the top all the way around. I'd call that a Monday guitar...after a hell of a weekend.

Eric, I just pulled to top on what I think is a '49 J45 and the braces were tucked the same way you described. They just crunched it down and called it good. Guess it was ok, lasted about 50 years

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

James,
"Sandy feeling powder" well describes the glue residue on the old Martins shown above.
Is it possible that extreme heat and dryness would drive the moisture out of the glue and rob it of it's cohesiveness??
Excess moisture and mold degrade it?

I was able to pop the braces of those old Stellas without much effort or any heat at all. The glue is brittle and sandy, so all it took was a gentle push with a knife and it all comes apart. PVA on the other hand does not change over time, so fixing Elmer's glue mistake (done by previous owners) isn't so simple...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I'm less inclined to believe that extreme dryness affects it. The granules seem to store forever without affecting the glue. Extreme humidity for long periods of time may not be the best conditions for it though.
We also need to include the quality of the glue that was used in the first place. Not only that but we really have no idea if (and by how much) the glue was over heated in the double boiler.
The point is that we know that there are quite literally 10's of thousands of instruments that are between 100 and 400 years old and show absolutely no signs of Hide glue degradation. Joints that are 400 years old and still perfectly intact.